Originally Posted By Dr G Finally, I have taken way more of my time than I intended to in diving into this, and I'm going to have to back off. Again, I appreciate the opportunity to have discussed this, shared my opinion, and read the opinion of others. I hope the judging actions and not people thing has made sense, because that point is important to me. It's nice that we all don't have to think the same, that we can have opinions and beliefs and share them without hating each other in the process. I said it before and I'll say it again, I believe we all have much more in common with each other than we have differences. It seems that people are always wanting to divide, rather than unite. It's always black vs. white, rich vs. poor, Republicans vs. Democrats, conservative vs. liberal, religion vs. atheism, heterosexual vs. homosexual, men vs. women, DL vs. DCA (had to throw that in, sorry ), etc. I think we're better to go with: we're all children of God, or we're all part of the human family, or however one choses to phrase it. That includes gays. Wow, long soap box I've been on. Time to get off it. I think I've proved to myself that if I want to have a life in my spare time, I'd better avoid World Events Have a great evening! Dave
Originally Posted By mrrogers Read Leviticus. Then re-read it. Levititicus is a rulebook for Hebrew Priests. They are not laws that branch out to all of humanity. Get your facts straight. Nowhere in the bible does it explicity forbid homosexual acts. Besides, there is no equivalent in the Hebrew language for the word "homosexual." You are not to lay with another man in a Holy Temple, plain and simple. There is no other way to take that passage. (Especially when the Chapter notes explain what the entire Book represents.) The Bible states that long hair on men is unnatural. Hmm, let's think about that. God made my hair grow...and it continues to grow until I cut it. So, how can it be that the function that God created be unnatural? Leviticus is chock full of these laws that no one in their right mind would follow or pursue in today's world. If a child is to curse at their parents, they are to be punished by DEATH! Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19) (punishable by death) Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10) People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18) I hate how people pick what they want to wave as "the way it should be" for some issues, but look away from all the other life laws that are laid out. Anyway, I was at Disneyland this weekend and it was great, Gay Days or not. It made my day seeing so many happy parents, straight and gay, with their kids or their significant others, enjoying the day the same as myself and my fiance.
Originally Posted By scottie It's hard to argue with most Christian morals because most are common views for human kind regardless of religion. Most of these rules of right or wrong are obvious because of the evidence of consequences in everyday life. Some are more obvious than others but most messages are clear enough if you do some research. Which is one of the reasons I changed my mind about homosexuality. Why would God say that it is wrong to be homosexual? It's a valid question because most other things can be explained more than "because I told you so in the bible" When I looked at it, homosexuality by itself does not appear to have the negative consequences to people in a way that we can say it is wrong. Chain smoking, being an alchoholic, acts of murder, cheating, stealing, it is clear to me of the consequences. Being gay...not so clear. What are the negative consequences that are any different than "choosing" to be heterosexual? I know what the bible tells me, but most views of right and wrong and consequences can be backed up with both biblical verse and modern day experience or evidence. You can go with your heart and say that it is not wrong to be gay. Or you can go with your heart and say that it is. When that day comes I could just see Dr G and I standing before God and asking him what he really thinks.
Originally Posted By scottie <<When that day comes I could just see Dr G and I standing before God and asking him what he really thinks. >> ...as we look down at our morally equipped, well adjusted, legally married sons, enjoying a wonderful Gay Day at Disneyland! Sorry... just had to throw that in!
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<First off, generally when someone is offended by something that someone else said, the person offended is not comfortable in their own skin.>> Some statements are just offensive, without regard to how comfortable the recipients are with themselves. Your position implies that anyone who objects to offensive statements is hyper-sensitive, mal-adjusted, or whiny. That's a convenient justification for making offensive statements, isn't it?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <But, I hear a lot of gays saying that their natural inclination is what it is. So, if God exists, and what they are saying is true, then God has created something contrary to his will. That's the issue I'm trying to resolve in my own mind.> You might resolve it this way: that God created homosexuality as well. It exists in other species, as I've said. It's not for procreation - why then does it exist? I don't claim to know. But it does. And if God created all things and all conditions (albinoism - in many species besides humans - left-handedness, etc.) then by this way of thinking he created homosexuality as well. It is thus not contrary to His will, but part of it. Why have gay humans? Well, the flip answer is that SOMEONE has to write the musicals and direct the church choirs... but the real answer is we don't know, but it is part of His plan anyway, like a lot of things we don't know the answer to. And the passages in the Bible that seem to condemn it have been misinterpreted through the centuries. An earlier poster gave the example of Leviticus, and that passage DOES refer to ritual prostitution performed at Temple - the earliest translations make that clear. But it has been mistranslated and misinterpreted through the centuries. <Yes, there are gaps in my understanding and logic, and I'm just trying to reconcile what I know with what I see around me.> I give you great credit for saying so. May I suggest that a good way to fill in those gaps in understanding and logic would be to talk to and ask questions of gay people directly - especially, in your case, gay Christians.
Originally Posted By BoyStory Well I was doing my best to stay out of this terribly controversial subject. I do fine with this topic in other avenues, but this board is my "happy" place, lol and I try my best not to offend people- but not to the point where my very silence compromises my own values. I was still going to remain silent until I read DR. G's OP. I just want to say that your post touched me so much personally by the tactfulness and truthfulness of it. I felt it came across as honest, intelligent, and void of a single malicious word. You expressed so well my feelings and TRUE Christian values. I enjoy writing myself, but I couldn't have said it any better. Let me say that your message was appreciated and I think gave a true balance to how us "so-called " right winged Christians feel. On a more personal note, I've been aware of Gay Days for years and yes, I made the decision for my family one year to change our vacation dates having been made aware of the “Celebration“ . Does this make me intolerant? Not hardly. Anyone who knows me well knows I am a very tolerant person. But just as someone else said on this board earlier. Tolerance is NOT acceptance. I am intolerant however of the thought of someone going to gay days to "heckle" those who are participating in the “celebration†or to not treat them with the love and kindness that God expects us to show to our neighbor. Yes, deliberately going to my favorite vacation spot where people are there celebrating something that goes against our strong personal Christian beliefs would just be hypocritical IMHO. There are plenty of other days of the year to go to DL. And to Crapshoot. I’m sorry that a group people on a day to celebrate Christianity had to behave so badly. I assure you, however that the culprits for the “smell of pot†on the air, ect. were not Christians b/c that behavior contradicts the very meaning of what makes a Christian. I also agree that name calling (or even the insinuation the all gays are perverts) is completely counterproductive to your points. We are here to love one another, be informed of the consequences of our actions, and then leave the judging up to God.
Originally Posted By Dr G <<May I suggest that a good way to fill in those gaps in understanding and logic would be to talk to and ask questions of gay people directly - especially, in your case, gay Christians.>> Dabob2 and others interested: I've followed your advice and have posted a question in World Events. I can state with a clear conscience that it is an honest question, to which I would like to hear honest answers, without any gay or religion bashing. Thanks again all for an honest dialogue. (p.s. BoyStory--thanks for the nice comments)
Originally Posted By Dr G ?: Does this Board have a PM feature? I've looked and can't see one. I have a couple questions for a couple posters here but don't want to take up space and time for others. Thanks!
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster This has been a thoroughly enjoyable and iformative read and I applaud all of you for contributing. As a former Christian and current homosexual, I comprehend very well both sides of the argument. I fasted and prayed for ten years for God to help turn me straight and it never happened which led me to conculde that either God does not exist or God does not care if I am gay or not. Either way, what I am attracted to is definitely NOT a choice but I will make the best of it rather than lead a deceitful life with a female (Which I did in the past). Oh, and Jesus never uttered a single word about homosexuality. It is therefore NOT a Christian issue at all. Don't even get me started on the Old Testament.
Originally Posted By patrickegan Churro, et al- That’s great that you came to terms with yourself. I don’t know if I agree with your argument it is invalidated by freewill. Lot’s of evil happens upon this earth and human kind continually struggles as it always has with the dichotomy between this good and evil. I’m sure many people have urges to do things that would be considered antisocial in nature but some resist those urges and others act upon them. Can these actions be excused away? Well I was born that way or that’s God’s plan or my dad was an alcoholic etc. most of these simple justification don’t make the antisocial actions right but people find ways to justify what they want need or think they deserve. People get murdered, raped, robbed so keeping with your argument God wants that too or he simply just doesn’t exist? Now please understand that I’m not trying to make a blanket comparison between homosexuality and these other examples of antisocial behaviors. The problem inherent in the “movement†is the in your face freak show and then the seamy underbelly of public sex act’s inappropriate or lascivious dress (butt-less chaps and other unsavory accoutrements) and the red headed stepchild of the gay “movement†NAMBLA lurking in the shadows. Now I’m not saying this is what transpires at Disneyland but at other venues where “we†just wanted to march under the innocuous guise of “showing unity†usually degenerate into a showing of debauchery far beyond the pale of what most would consider common decency. Is this not recognized as a problem within the “gay†community? Am I wrong or is there a segment that would like to be taken seriously by the mainstream? If you are gay that’s great, if you’re happy I’m happy but the overt displays of “unity†over the years have become nothing short of trite and really I think we have heard and seen what it’s all about! My bone of contention and more important then “unity†is that my 7 year old doesn’t need to be confronted with and forced to ponder the complexities of sexuality be it gay or strait! I am of the opinion that this selfishness is a form of social larceny that robs the little ones of the uncomplicated pleasures of childhood! Furthermore I am not comfortable with the display of “unity†at Disneyland and feel (we don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings do we?) that it is an affront upon a group of people and their children! If the situation were reversed and mom’s with strollers and young children showed up on Castro or Bourbon Streets during a gay festival wearing t-shirt with a not so catchy tired old slogan i.e. Adam and Steve what would you say? (I would also oppose this scenario!) Some folks will agree and others will disagree either way that’s fine but never the less I am entitled to my opinion! -P And please the notion of gay Christians is on the same level of inanity as black people wanting to join the Klan!
Originally Posted By Tiggirl I think you just inadvertently related Christianity to the Klan... That's interesting. ~Beth
Originally Posted By Tiggirl I hate it when I don't finish my thought. I find it interesting that you associated the Klan with Chrisianity because you seem to consider yourself a Christian. I know i wouldn't want to compare any group I was a part of to the Klan. I certainly hope Christians would hold themselves to a higher standard and show more compassion than the KKK. As an interesting side note... my father used to be a preacher and his best friend is gay. So perhaps not all Christians would appriciate being lumped with the Klan. ~Beth
Originally Posted By patrickegan I could see that at first glance possibly without analytical thought one could construe that (I guess) but it was meant as an a extremely simple likeness of absurdities!
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "...but the overt displays of “unity†over the years have become nothing short of trite" I would strongly suggest they're necessary, given that there are people with opinions such as yours. "I am of the opinion that this selfishness is a form of social larceny that robs the little ones of the uncomplicated pleasures of childhood!" As you say, you're entitled to your opinion. However unenlightened and uninformed it is, it's yours. Comparing it to larceny is especially unsettling, given a Christian background. "And please the notion of gay Christians is on the same level of inanity as black people wanting to join the Klan!" Here's where your generally non-confrontational (although it would be extremely easy to construe as ultimately condescending) approach has the wheels fall off. What's inane, frankly, is that you think gays can't be Christian. Moreover, it is an attitude such as yours that has completely turned me off from any form of organized religion. What you posted is phobic beyond the pale. I believe in God, but I also believe he didn't set any kind of standard by which I'm supposed to judge another human being such as you propose here. It's the height of hypocrisy. Comparing gay Christians to blacks joining the clan? Fighting words there pal, fighting words. I refuse to buy into a bigoted theory that certain sections of the population cannot be Christian on the basis of the gender of whom they direct their love and affection. "Sorry", God is supposed to have said, "no women loving other women on my planet, and certain no men embracing another man. Cast them aside." What utter and complete crap. I'm not gay. Matter of fact, one of the reasons I waited until my 40's to get married is because I was enjoying not being gay, if you will, a little too much. I can't relate one iota to a man who says he naturally finds other men atractive just as I do women. However, since his behavior certainly indicates what he says is true, who am I to say he's not correct in what he says? He's taking me at MY word, the least I can do is return the same. It's really all very simple. And I would never be so arrogant as to tell that person his behavior is a sin, or worse yet, God has no time for him, so forget any notion of Christianity. No one on earth has that right whatsoever.
Originally Posted By scottie Patrickegan- Do you think the Klu Klux Klan is a good representation of caucasions? Do we take their actions and generalize them to an entire race they tend to belong? Are there any Klan groups that will lovingly accept black people? You can figure out why I would ask you those questions in response to your last post. People keep bringing up good vs evil... knowing right from wrong. In our culture, murder, rape, stealing...it's wrong whether you know it or not, regardless of your religious beliefs. People who do it often admit to knowing it's wrong when they do it. If I said, excluding religious beliefs, what are the negative consequences for murder, rape, stealing, etc? People would be able to provide me with countless reasons. Excluding religious beliefs, what are the negative consequences of homosexuality?
Originally Posted By kennect Are we talking bigotry or religion here...I know all of this talk is related to religion and what the bible says but what does the bible say about bigotry?
Originally Posted By patrickegan Everyone’s getting emotional which is evidenced by the lack of logic in the reply’s and of course no one is touching the real issues but just picking out bites that have little or nothing to do with the real issue. Am I to assume that no one has real awnsers for these points? Then you guys trot out the tried and true but equally tiresome attack words i.e. homophobic, bigot etc. when your argument won’t/can’t hold water. That tripe may scare the kiddies but I’m not buying. Look I’m not saying don’t be gay or that it’s an abomination or any of that or even pushing my religious views on anyone!!! What I am saying is stop with the boorish behavior, why do I call it boorish? Because it’s not gender, race or creed but the “movement†revolves around sexuality and displays there of. I don’t care if you are having an affair with your dog I just don’t want to hear about the act or be asked to afford special dispensation to someone because that person makes love to said dog. Whatever as long as you are not hurting anyone go nut’s!!! “I would strongly suggest they're necessary, given that there are people with opinions such as yours.†So what your saying is I’m not as enlightened as the more equal than other’s homosexual crowd because I disagree with public representations of sexuality at a family venue? It’s selfish that one group would careless about other people feelings especially taking into account the family venue but expect others to cater to your feelings all the while. Whatever the case the event in question has no real merit as a political or social statement. “Here's where your generally non-confrontational (although it would be extremely easy to construe as ultimately condescending) approach has the wheels fall off. What's inane, frankly, is that you think gays can't be Christian. Moreover, it is an attitude such as yours that has completely turned me off from any form of organized religion. What you posted is phobic beyond the pale. I believe in God, but I also believe he didn't set any kind of standard by which I'm supposed to judge another human being such as you propose here. It's the height of hypocrisy. Comparing gay Christians to blacks joining the clan? Fighting words there pal, fighting words. I refuse to buy into a bigoted theory that certain sections of the population cannot be Christian on the basis of the gender of whom they direct their love and affection. "Sorry", God is supposed to have said, "no women loving other women on my planet, and certain no men embracing another man. Cast them aside." What utter and complete crap. You said a mouthful I don’t know what new age wiccan church you attend but go sell that script to the Pope fella! Pertaining to the Klan “I could see that at first glance possibly without analytical thought one could construe that (I guess) but it was meant as an a extremely simple likeness of absurdities!†I guess you didn’t read that post or you can’t/didn’t comprehend the concept but secondly don’t be too hasty to judge my friend as others involved in this discussion might label you a bigot!!! I know hard to believe from such an enlightened group that would never label and are open to anything and everything but people who oppose their version of equality. “Excluding religious beliefs, what are the negative consequences of homosexuality?†SEXUALITY part of HOMO sexuality made public and forced onto others and their children. All I’m saying is keep your sexuality to yourself and I’ll keep mine to myself. I’m just waiting for the insults upon me to go nuclear “you know what this means girls he must really be gay†and what’s the other moldy oldie?
