Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I am frustrated how the DNC has wimped out on this issue. The defense that "at least they're better than the Republicans" just doesn't cut it with me. It's time for stupid discriminatory policies like "don't ask/don't tell" to go. It's time for people to deal with the reality that there always have been and always will be gay people in our society. Get over it already. They deserve no more nor any less rights and privelidges as heterosexuals. I think it's time for the LGBT community to remove it's counted-on support of Democrats and make candidates earn that support by actually DOING something.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan And from a political standpoint, traditionally there has been little to gain for Republican candidates in terms of the gay vote. It is assumed that the majority of gay voters will by default choose a democrat. I think it's time to show GOP candidates who are willing to do the right thing at the risk of surely ticking off hardline conservatives that there are votes to be earned by doing so -- a reward, if you will.
Originally Posted By DAR <<Is that you, DAR??>> Notice that I've kept pretty quiet around here. 1) Gay marriage, gay rights I've never had a problem with this topic(any clear headed individual should feel this way) So the majority of you aren't going to get any argument from me as to why it's a bad thing. 2) It's become rather pointless to debate anything around here. It all turns into the same inane name calling we chasitized Beau for. I'll just continue to post my weird and interesting stories and maybe read some other posts that interest me.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Kar2oonMan, I knew I liked you! For the record DAR we have not been discussing gay marriage. I want to make that point clear. I think I have done an excellent job of demonstrating that the National Democratic Party althought recpetive to gay issues has not always been the champion for gay rights that the gay community think they have been. There are plenty of examples of how the Democrats ( dropped the ball ) so to speak when it come to gay rights. I also think that gay individuals run the spectum of Liberal to Conservative. And yes the Republican Party has never been all that receptive to the gay community ( sure I know about the log cabin groups so save it for another debate ). As long as the religious right hold control over the Republican Party then the only way you will ever see a Republican elected to office is a fluke like Arnold out in California. Otherwise every candidate must pass the Republican Party litmus test which automatically means they must be for traditional family values ( which includes hate ) and absolutely nonrecptive to gay rights. After my posts I had the opportunity to reflect on my thoughts about the Clinton's. And I have to say that I have never forgotten or forgiven the Clinton's for whimping out on gay rights. Bill never was and never will be the champion for gay rights that he has pretended to be. I think Koretta Scott King summed up well the Democratic Party attitude toward gays when she said that, "gays are not a TRUE minority".
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I've never seen that quote from Mrs. King, KT, and I'd appreciate it if you could find a link that shows it. Every quote I know from Mrs. King has been very supportive of gay rights, and this goes back to the 70's, when such support was quite rare indeed. I think you may be confusing her with someone else. <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-24-king-marriage_x.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usatoday.com/news/n ation/2004-03-24-king-marriage_x.htm</a> You may be confusing her with King's daughter or niece, who said similar things. Mrs. King though, to my knowledge, has always been a champion for us, even when this was quite unpopular. <a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/12/14/EDGEBAB7KB1.DTL" target="_blank">http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/arti cle.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/12/14/EDGEBAB7KB1.DTL</a> "It's not the first time that a King family member has sullied King's name and legacy to torpedo gay rights. In 1998, King's niece, Alveda King, barnstormed the country speaking at rallies against gay-rights legislation. In case anyone missed the King family connection, her group is named King for America. Gay-rights groups everywhere countered King's "repent and save yourself" message to gays by quoting a public statement Coretta Scott King issued in 1996, in which she said that King would be a champion of gay rights if he were alive. " (This article also points out MLK's friendship and reliance on Bayard Rustin, known to MLK to be gay. MLK was pressured to jettison Rustin from the movement for this reason, but he did not.) Finally, I think this quote should put to rest Mrs. King's position. I really think you have her confused with someone else. <a href="http://www.alternet.org/rights/31736/" target="_blank">http://www.alternet.org/rights /31736/</a> "Her history and her standing in the African-American community made her a particularly formidable ally. While many African-American leaders virulently oppose equating the black civil rights movement and the gay rights movement, Mrs. King embraced the obvious parallels. "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood," she said in a speech in Chicago in April 1998, just days before the 30th anniversary of her late husband's assassination. "I've always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy."
Originally Posted By planodisney And nothing rallies the Democratic base more than the Christian right bomb, which is trotted out on an equaly regular basis. Or, substitute, "BIG OIL", or "Evil Right Wing Conspirators". The Democratic leadership knows all too well how to instill their base with anger, and use the tactics at every corner, at the expense of national unity.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I'd have no problem with the Christian right if they simply believed what they wanted to believe, respected others' rights to do the same, and then left me the hell alone. Too many do not seem content with this, however, and actively work to deny me basic rights in the civil arena.
Originally Posted By DAR It's pretty simple Dabob, the Christian Right believes that you can change your ways. They don't believe that you were born the way you are.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "It's pretty simple Dabob, the Christian Right believes that you can change your ways. They don't believe that you were born the way you are." And they'd be wrong.
Originally Posted By DAR You did notice I never said they were right? Of course they're wrong, but that's just one of their methods.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I think it's something worth repeating every now and again -- many GOP voters in no way identify themselves with the Christian Right -- and especially in places like Illinois and Wisconsin where DAR and I reside. I put the far right in the same wagon as the far left and drive them both off a cliff... there's really very few of either in this area .....
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I'd have no problem with the Christian right if they simply believed what they wanted to believe, respected others' rights to do the same, and then left me the hell alone. Too many do not seem content with this, however, and actively work to deny me basic rights in the civil arena.>> The Christian Right could say the same about liberal beliefs that we would like to make the law of the land (Gay Marriage, Abortion, Global Warming, etc.) That, perhaps sadly, is what legislation is all about. We try to force on everyone that which we think should be done. If we are in the majority we win; if we are in the minority we lose.
Originally Posted By jonvn "many GOP voters in no way identify themselves with the Christian Right" Too bad the GOP has been hijacked by them, then.
Originally Posted By jonvn I don't think much of any special interest group has hijacked the dems like the christian right has hijacked the republicans. It has basically turned them into an extremist organization that is totally out of step with the majority of the people in this country.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<I'd have no problem with the Christian right if they simply believed what they wanted to believe, respected others' rights to do the same, and then left me the hell alone. Too many do not seem content with this, however, and actively work to deny me basic rights in the civil arena.>> <The Christian Right could say the same about liberal beliefs that we would like to make the law of the land (Gay Marriage, Abortion, Global Warming, etc.) That, perhaps sadly, is what legislation is all about. We try to force on everyone that which we think should be done. If we are in the majority we win; if we are in the minority we lose.> That's not quite right, though. If gay marriage is allowed, for instance, it doesn't impinge on any straight person's rights, any more than interracial marriage did. A lot of people may not have APPROVED of people of different races marrying (some still don't!), but that's not the same as a denial of rights. I don't need anyone's approval; I just want to be treated equally under the law. There's a difference.
Originally Posted By planodisney You simply can not get the Democratic nomination if you dont line up lock step on certain issues. Meanwhile, the republican front-runner is pro-gay rights, pro-choice and many, many conservative Christian leaders have given him the thumbs up. But ignorance IS bliss, so keep believing what makes you feel good. The Democratic candiates are afraid to do anything to get on the wrong side of groups like Moveon and others because the control so much of the Deocratic base and dish out or withhold so much funding and advertising. Yet somehow, many of you confuse the Republicans as being sold out the ther far out base. The facts dont prove that, AT ALL, but facts dont seem to ever realy matter on here.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Meanwhile, the republican front-runner is pro-gay rights, pro-choice and many, many conservative Christian leaders have given him the thumbs up. But ignorance IS bliss, so keep believing what makes you feel good." Speaking of which, do you really think Giuliani is going to be the nominee? I have a hard time seeing that. Take 9/11 out of the equation, he was a bad mayor on his way out.
