Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <THAT'S your reply?> Yes. It's not worth trying to have an intelligent conversation with people who rely on dismissal, distortion, and demonization. If you want to respond to what I actually said, ask honest questions, and skip the insults, then I'll reply to you.
Originally Posted By X-san Whatever. Debate team Doug strikes again. So disappointing. (and as I did respond to what you said with a direct question, the same one twice, you're simply ducking the issue because I'm quite certain you have no valid answer)
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Gays being allowed to marry would actually strengthen the institution of marriage. Imagine an entire segment of our population who wants to get married! God knows the straight population is doing everything it can to avoid marriage.
Originally Posted By dshyates "The evidence is that places that have allowed gay marriage are seeing marriage rates falling at an increased rate since gay marriage was introduced. There's fewer marriages, more divorces, and fewer births, and more of them are out-of-wedlock. This is not good for society." This is a fallacy. Marriage rates are falling in all civilized nations whether gay marriage is allowed or not. The countries that have allowed it, have no difference in marriage rates than those that do not. These falling rates have been blamed by religious bigots on Gay marriage". This is not a corralative effect. And yoyu are right that marriage was created by man to created a social support network in which child rearing is more adventageous. And the same is true of homosexual couples who happen to have children. Having 2 parents as financial and logistical support for the children is better than forcing gay parents to "live a lie" and make everyone miserable. I think that flaming bigotry is far more dangerous to society than gay marriage. These guardians of a moral society have a tendancy to blow up gay bars.
Originally Posted By X-san ***And you are right that marriage was created by man to created a social support network in which child rearing is more advantageous.*** Absolutely. No dispute there. But this is here and now. Much as the fact that the Catholic Church condemns birth control in even the most overpopulated, poverty stricken places on earth, for which they should be ashamed and disgusted with themselves from that Ratzenberger criminal on down the line!, so do we see the same antiquated garbage about "the sanctity of marriage" being spouted by gay bashers for much the same reasons. There's no basis for it, it's naked prejudice cloaked in "morals" or, as Douglas tries to paint it "for the good of society". What a laugh. Douglas, you are no better than that pope who plys the African families with bibles and false hope, while in no way actually teaching these poor people that there is an available way to keep from bringing even more dying babies into this world...for shame, to you and to them.
Originally Posted By dshyates The gay marriage issue is where I think humanity based morality and religion based morality are at odds. I believe only religion could demonize the obviously morally "right" answer to the point the bigots have on this issue.
Originally Posted By X-san I'm not so sure the religions "demonize" the issue so much, the prejudiced pigs take care of that just fine by themselves. I think what religions do is JUSTIFY the hate, and that is what makes it all the more ugly and dangerous. As an easy example, a mormon on these very boards stated unequivocally that if his church proclaimed that blacks were once again inferior in their eyes, he'd have absolutely no problem following it. Justification. So, for the hate filled pigs, there's nothing better than to have their church tell them that their hate is "god inspired" and "righteously moral". Frankly, I'm sure there are some out there that are just salivating at the possibility that some church, somewhere, would proclaim that "niggers are bad", so they can hoop and holler and lynch and point to that church to justify the fact that "GOD AGREES WITH US!". Yee freakin haw.
Originally Posted By X-san To clarify, when I said "some out there" I want to be clear that I wasn't thinking of any LPers in particular whatsoever. I was thinking about the idea "in general", and I would surely (probably optimistically, but I hope not!) hope that that wouldn't include anyone in our particular little microcosm. In other words, I meant that NOT as a slam towards anyone here and I want to make sure that if I came across that way, that wasn't my intention in the least.
Originally Posted By dshyates I will throw in my disclaimer now. I think that while we respectfully disagree on these boards. The bigots I was refering to are the guys in the right wing noise machine that have demonized this issue and "gays" in general. But I do have to say that the asertion that, to paraphrase, "allowing the right of marriage to gays will cause the downfall of civilized society" is a little over the top, don'cha think? I think it will be $15/gallon gas and $10 loaves of bread thats gonna bring this country to its knees. Of course George and GOP noise machine will be stading there saying, "Look what gay marriage has done to this country".
Originally Posted By mele Aw, and Douglas is an excellent judge of "dismissal, distortion, and demonization". He specializes in it himself with comments like this... "In fact, you really don't have too worry about anything - right or wrong, or morals. Just do whatever makes you feel good, whenever you want. Consequences don't matter." And let's smile as he ignores the irony in his comments which dismiss, distort, and demonize the gay community in every single one of these conversations. LOL! But he is correct in some regards...he isn't worth the effort.
Originally Posted By X-san I never thought I'd find a good enough reason to use this phrase, but Douglas...you just got served bro.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <As usual, the proponents of gay marriage rely on dismissal, distortion, and demonization, rather than present logic or evidence.> Oh please. I showed where your beloved studies fall apart and why, very simply and logically. SPP, time and again, tackles this from the logical and coldly dispassionate p.o.v. of how the law works and will ultimately be applied. Many others here present better logic and evidence than you ever have. Then you try to lump all of us "proponents of gay marriage" in together with some of the more over the top comments. Talk about distortion and demonization.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Then you try to lump all of us "proponents of gay marriage" in together with some of the more over the top comments. Talk about distortion and demonization." Well, what I've done here in the last several times I've posted is lift word for word responses he gives to any number of arguments on various topics. He's presented with all manner of evidence, and invariably he calls it opinion with distorted data or says "you've presented nothing credible". So now he throws a tantrum when I play with him and do it here. Still haven't seen any legal arguments from him.
Originally Posted By X-san ***Still haven't seen any legal arguments from him.*** Are there any truly legal arguments to be made here? Aside from "we hate fags and don't want them to marry", I really don't see the legitimate argument.
Originally Posted By ecdc Frustrating as it is, I hope Dabob, SPP and others will continue to respond to Douglas with their logical posts. It's extremely telling to people who might be "on the fence" or questioning the gay marriage ban when they see threads like this. They see two intelligent people offer up quality posts and reasoning on this topic, then, they see the response of "nuh uh" and "no it isn't" and they clearly see that the other side doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. I know it's frustrating to the point of laughable to spend quality time responding to posts, only to have someone who clearly doesn't know what he's talking about say "no it isn't," but it really is a valuable service in educating people on this topic. This is exactly the kind of thing we need to show Americans that those opposed to gay marriage really are bigots. They have no leg to stand on aside from their own internal discomfort, and this thread is *perfect* proof of that.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh More distortion. Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back. The only thing this thread proves is that proponents of gay marriage can't argue in its favor without dismissal, distortion, and demonization.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>The only thing this thread proves is that proponents of gay marriage can't argue in its favor without dismissal, distortion, and demonization.<< I will agree with you on one point. Anti-gay marriage is bigotry, plain and simple. It is therefore entirely deserving of dismissal and demonization, just as all bigotry does. Fortunately, people like Dabob2 and SPP are more tolerant than I am and are willing to have the conversation. This creates threads like this that people can read and see that bigots have no leg to stand on, and proponents of equality (equality, what a novel, American idea!) make superb points. Really, this argument went game, set, match, Dabob2 in post 208. You know it, and so therefore have resorted to mimicking my four year old with your "no it isn't!" responses.
Originally Posted By ecdc For fun, let's review Douglas' posts since Dabob's 208 and see what he's offered to the conversation. So as to not be accused of "distortion, dismissal, and demonization" I will quote him verbatim: >>Post 219: As usual, the proponents of gay marriage rely on dismissal, distortion, and demonization, rather than present logic or evidence. Post 221: Yes. It's not worth trying to have an intelligent conversation with people who rely on dismissal, distortion, and demonization. If you want to respond to what I actually said, ask honest questions, and skip the insults, then I'll reply to you. Post 234: Keep fooling yourselves. Post 236: You can't see it because you won't see it. Post 238: More distortion. Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back. The only thing this thread proves is that proponents of gay marriage can't argue in its favor without dismissal, distortion, and demonization.<< The inability to respond is right there for everyone to see. I'd encourage anyone who still thinks gay marriage is a bad idea to review the posts on this thread. Who has nothing to say, and who has logic, reason, and Americanism on their side?
