Originally Posted By utahjosh And by asking that please do not assume that I believe that religion SHOULD be where all laws of the land come from.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The fact of the matter is that the best way to assure that a definition of marriage as it now stands continues is to put it into the foundational legal document of the United States. That is in the Constitution.<< The "fact" is, it's discrimination, pure and simple. >>tend to degrade if not destroy the institution that’s been honored over so many thousands of years.<< Yes, and it wasn't long ago that pretty much this very argument was used in terms of interracial marriage. Heard it all before. It will never change my mind. >>is that children deserve to be reared in a home with a father and a mother.<< Uh huh. This, too, brings to mind things that were said in relation to interracial marriage. It would "confuse" children if they had parents of two different races. And now we have the product of an interracial marriage running for president, and another who is the top golfer in the world and so on. These tired arguments simply doesn't wash. >>They speak much more eloquently on my belief system's view on the matter.<< Discrimination, no matter how eloquently stated, is discrimination.
Originally Posted By utahjosh It may "bring to mind" discrimination like that of interracial marriages, but to me it is not the same at all. I've heard all of your talking points before, too. It will never change my mind.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 It may "bring to mind" discrimination like that of interracial marriages, but to me it is not the same at all.<< How is it not the same? Anytime we treat any group of individuals differently we discriminate against them...
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "It may "bring to mind" discrimination like that of interracial marriages, but to me it is not the same at all." Of course it is. A person cannot be discriminated against on the basis of race, gender or sexual orientation. The court today said a ban discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation. "I've heard all of your talking points before, too. It will never change my mind." Here is where your church does you no favors at all. These are not "talking points". This is the law of the land. That your church sees it differently is their right, but that belief should have no bearing or effect beyond the four walls of the church. Which leads to your other question. While the laws had to start somewhere, our forefathers made sure there was a separation of church and state. Some argue this, but they always lose the argument. Always. The Constitution is predicated, sometimes naively to be sure, that people leave their church at the door when enacting laws and maintaining the Constitution. Gay marriage arguably will be the biggest test of that so far in our country's history, but if we're truly going to respect the rights of all citizens, and not just the ones we approve of, then gays should be allowed to marry.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I've heard all of your talking points before, too. It will never change my mind.<< Then I guess you didn't really mean it when you said: "I haven't read this entire thing, but I plan to do so and evaluate my own feelings and see if I agree." If you can't see the obvious parallels between the arguments against interracial marriage that were made a few decades ago and the arguments against gay marriage today, then you won't ever be convinced. But just because you are not convinced, it doesn't mean it isn't discrimination.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <But I also love and honor the institution of marriage and family.> So do I. <I would prefer that the word Marriage continues to mean Man and Wife.> I would prefer it be made available to all citizens, not just most. <2 gay people can't be married. It's impossible.> It is not. I live it every day. <But I will be kind and I will be fair to their rights.> Well, no. Apparently, you will not. You're free to believe whatever you like as a Mormon. My church believes in gay marriage (and I was married in our church), yours does not. Fine. But those beliefs should have no bearing on civil law.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Where, then, do the laws of the land come from?<< You mean laws like the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act? The Edmunds Act? The Edmunds-Tucker Act? Those laws came from men in Congress dedicated to preserving the sanctity of marriage by outlawing polygamy and jailing LDS leaders like Lorenzo Snow and George Q. Cannon. Rather than be arrested, LDS leader John Taylor went into hiding. On the 4th of July, Taylor ordered the flag flown at half-mast in Salt Lake City to protest anti-polygamy laws. So much for Mormon respect for the law of the land. Josh, it's easy to use your beliefs to prop up the law when it's not your ox being gored. But you, of all people, ought to know what happens when people find a practice morally reprehensible (like polygamy) and then impose their will on others by passing laws.
Originally Posted By X-san ***Some people promote the idea that there can be two marriages, co-existing side by side, one heterosexual and one homosexual, without any adverse consequences. The hard reality is that, as an institution, marriage like all other institutions can only have one definition without changing the very character of the institution. Hence there can be no coexistence of two marriages. Either there is marriage as it is now defined and as defined by the Lord, or there is what could thus be described as genderless marriage. The latter is abhorrent to God, who, as we’ve been discussing, Himself described what marriage is — between a man and a woman*** I've just got to say, if I were god I would be so absolutely pissed off at all these religions blowhards telling everyone exactly what I did or did not thing about things, what exactly I found to be "abhorrent", and who I thought were good and bad people. They'd be the ones sitting in the pits for a few thousand millenia.
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Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA I just heard about this about a half an hour ago. Bravo. This is a good thing.
Originally Posted By Elderp "separation of Church and State" I don't really care about either of these issues but I want to know why Polygamy is illegal and gay marriage isn't.
Originally Posted By X-san So, what's your point? Are you saying gay marriage and polygamy should be legal? Or vice-versa? Interesting that the Mormon church is being so outspoken about banning one, when their history indicates great advocation for the other. So much for equality, eh?
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >>But I will be kind and I will be fair to their rights.<< Yeah, right. Just like your little LDS buddies who were doing their missions in SF a few days after Proposition 22 -- into which the LDS church pumped a lot of campaign money -- passed. One missionary had the absolute gall to approach me as I waited for a bus. He had no clue as to what I was talking about when I told him why I had no interest in listening to or speaking with him. Listen, I don't care if you or anyone else around here condones or doesn't condone my own relationship, but I'll be damned if I sit by and let people like you, the LDS church, the Baptists, the Catholics, ad nauseum work to deny me and mine legal recognition of our relationships. YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN US, BUT YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THAT. In my 20s and early 30s, I never considered myself an activist type, but that has changed ever since I left California. As far as I'm concerned, people like you are an enemy to me and will always be until the day you leave us alone. I'm not as optimistic as some people I know: Things are NEVER going to change. But that doesn't mean I'm going to sit down and take it. Have a nice life. Take pride in your superiority.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster All churches end up changing their doctrine when pressured by science or society. Some are much quicker to do so than others. The Mormon church is very slow to accept change but does it just like everyone else. They then concoct cover stories like divine revelation through a prophet when racist or sexist policies are discontinued. Polygamy, racism, sexism, wordly ignorance, all eventually fall by the wayside. The fact that they resist change so adamantly and so consistently is evidence that their leadership is neither inspired nor terribly intelligent. But the resistance to change is kind of fun to watch because it's easy to see who's going to win in the end.
Originally Posted By Elderp The Church makes no qualms about proclaiming morality, what is the government's excuse? As far as equality goes I don't think it exists. The best we can hope to do is get along without hurting eachother.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF ^^^ Too late. Organized religion and the bigots of this country have already done that job very well.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Oh and why is it that the same people who cry "THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE!" don't use the same argument when talking about our abominable divorce rate, the huge amount of "one man and one woman" living together without choosing to get married, and the marriage-trashing practice of polygamy? Straight people destroyed the sanctity of marriage long ago. Maybe it's time for gays to see of they can do a better job of preserving it?
Originally Posted By Elderp "because it's easy to see who's going to win in the end." Well according to you we all end up as worm food. That to me is a no win situation. At least I have a hope for something.
