Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >> After awhile it gets under your skin. << Fair enough. I think pretty much everyone, regardless where they live, have to deal with a certain amount of stereotyping. I just wanted you to know that this area, in spite of outward appearances at times, is hardly of one mindset on almost every topic. While I'm sure there is no shortage of people here who view the entire midwest with fear and loathing, there are plenty of others who aren't so simplistic.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "If you don't include that bastion of racism, San Francisco; MO and CA rates are really quite similar." So? This means that MO cops aren't racist? I tend to think of L.A. as my home (as far as major metro areas are concerned), but I sure wouldn't defend them as bastions of tolerance.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip It means like in every other place on earth, some cops are probably racist and some aren't. You can't immediately assume in either place that all actions are a result of racism. Some cops are total jerks to everyone. Some cops are generally very good cops but get in a stressful situation and make a mistake. It happens. Do good cops sometimes make errors that cost others their lives? Yes, they do. It goes with the job they are asked to do. But compared to other occupations where people are required to make life and death decisions, I think they do very well. It is estimated that about 210,000 people die every year from medical mistakes made in U.S. hospitals. Yet, I don't hear anyone calling for their heads. Maybe cops should start wearing white coats...
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<While I'm sure there is no shortage of people here who view the entire midwest with fear and loathing, there are plenty of others who aren't so simplistic.>> 2oony. I know I need to try and remember that. The people who are most vocal on WE tend to be very liberal, and it seems to me they really look down on the people of any red state... especially when they are in the middle part of the country. I know not everyone on the West Coast is like that. Just like I need to remember that the ranting conservatives on the Branson Board do not represent EVERYONE in SW Missouri. Sure, Romney took 70% of the vote in SW Missouri in 2012, but that still means almost 1 in 3 people voted for Obama. That is not an insignificant number, especially when you consider that the Black population of SW Missouri is less than 3%.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The people who are most vocal on WE tend to be very liberal, and it seems to me they really look down on the people of any red state<< I think they might be looking down on red state politics (and the politicians and others who pander to that stuff) more than the actual people of the state in general. Hopefully. I've lived in the bay area my whole life, but a huge percentage of people living here now are from elsewhere. A strange think i have noticed is that several of the people who I have met who moved here from the midwest are the first to say something nasty about it. But I think that's true of California as well -- I can only think of a couple of people who have moved out that have much nice to say about our state. And the longer the others are gone, they start developing some very stereotypical views of our state, as if they've never been here. Maybe bashing other places helps them feel more at home in their new home state?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip You would never hear me bad-mouth Minnesota. The winter weather sucks, and the high cost of living (at least in the Twin Cities) would mean doing less in retirement than I can do now. But other than that, I find it hard to imagine that any state would offer a better place to live.
Originally Posted By barboy4 New York mayor is a political coward who bends in the direction of the current social wind......so spineless.
Originally Posted By barboy4 Equally as noteworthy are the widespread pro police people assigning blame to NY mayor for 2 murders........but not assigning blame to homicidal cops messing with unarmed blacks. Maybe if the NYPD would have owned up to their abusive ways then those 2 police bystanders would not have been sacrificed/gunned down.
Originally Posted By utahjosh You simply can't compare the deaths (one accidental) of two men resisting arrest to the cold blooded murder of two innocent police officers.
Originally Posted By ecdc Actually, we can and should compare the deaths. We should understand that all the deaths are completely outlandish and appalling. Saying that we "can't compare them" implies that the deaths of the police officers are somehow worse than the death of Eric Garner. I keep hearing this pop up--this notion that somehow since Eric Garner or any of these other people were not behaving exactly, precisely, perfectly right, that, tragic though it may be, their deaths are somehow more "understandable." Hey, if that twelve-year-old kid in Cleveland hadn't taken the red plastic cap off his toy gun.... Remember when anti-government lunatics killed cops earlier this year in Florida, Nevada, and Pennsylvania? Were people blaming all of that on the Tea Party? I mean, hey, maybe if the Tea Party would cut out its anti-government rhetoric, this wouldn't have happened. Yeah...that didn't happen. But apparently cops get murdered and protesters and Bill Di Blasio are to blame.
Originally Posted By ecdc School shooting? Hey, don't blame all gun owners. Police brutality? Hey, don't blame all cops. Police officers murdered? DON'T SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT COPS EVER BECAUSE IT MAKES THEM GET MURDERED!!!
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Actually, we can and should compare the deaths.> Yes, and you'll see how very, very different the circumstances leading to the deaths are. And one is more evil and diabolical than the others.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 We also do and should hold police officers to a higher standard than common criminals. It reminds me of the "argument" that because black criminals kill people in greater numbers, that this somehow mitigates cops killing unarmed black people. It doesn't. That's a non sequitur. This guy, had he not shot himself, would also have been tried and convicted. The cops who shot and killed all these civilians lately? Not so much. So yeah, we should compare these deaths. And we should compare all the circumstances surrounding them. And remember that two wrongs don't make a right.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'm astounded that you guys can't admit that the cold blooded murder of two cops is at lease a little worse than the accidental strangling death of a man resisting arrest, or a man shot by a cop whom he just attacked. I'm not saying the other deaths should have happened. I'm saying cold blooded intent to murder is worse.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I'm astounded that you guys can't admit that the cold blooded murder of two cops is at lease a little worse<< Because it's not. It *seems* different to you because of the intentions of the murderer. But to the families of Eric Garner? The "accidental" nature of the police brutality doesn't make it any better for them. You are giving cops a tremendous amount of leeway by saying it's somehow not as bad (isn't that the very definition of "it's worse?) that these black men are dead. Shocker: Some of us manage to be aghast and appalled at the cold-blooded murder of these two innocent police officers *and* the cultural racism and police brutality that killed Eric Garner.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>or a man shot by a cop whom he just attacked.<< You do realize that Witness 40, the key person backing up Darren Wilson's statements about what happened between him and Michael Brown, has been completely discredited, right? People keep taking it for granted that Michael Brown "attacked" Darren Wilson. It is continually fed by our expectations of young black men as "scary thugs." See also, this excellent video: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.buzzfeed.com/bmelchior/why-grand-juries-dont-indict-cops-when-they-kill#.ywPK86P4a">http://www.buzzfeed.com/bmelch...wPK86P4a</a>
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "Shocker: Some of us manage to be aghast and appalled at the cold-blooded murder of these two innocent police officers *and* the cultural racism and police brutality that killed Eric Garner." Exactly. To the families, arguing which murder is worse would have to seem like the ultimate in useless arguments. If we have to play that game, I would say that the intent of the murderer was worse in the cop shooting, But the miscarriage of justice was worse in the Garner case, as surely the cop shooter would have been tried and convicted if he hadn't shot himself. But do we have to play that game?
Originally Posted By barboy4 ///I'm not saying the other deaths should have happened. I'm saying cold blooded intent to murder is worse./// Yes and no, Josh As to culpability in a the criminal arena, "yes" ,obviously, but as to the victims and their friends/loved ones, "no"......just guessing here but I'm pretty sure Garner's grievers would have shed just as many tears irrespective of which type of police conduct: intentional abuse or reckless disregard to human life........what do you think?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<You do realize that Witness 40, the key person backing up Darren Wilson's statements about what happened between him and Michael Brown, has been completely discredited, right?>> She was discredited IN FRONT OF the Grand Jury, so I assume they gave her evidence no weight. In the end, all eyewitness evidence is notoriously unreliable. But both the autopsy report and physical evidence supported Wilson's version of events. Not to mention that if Brown had just got on the effing sidewalk when told to, none of this would have happened.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Not to mention that if Brown had just got on the effing sidewalk when told to, none of this would have happened. > "How dare you say anything against Brown! He was shot and killed. You must never, ever say anything about his actions leading up to his death. He has no blame whatsoever in the events leading to his death." This is what it sounds like many of you are saying. I don't believe he should be dead. I talk about police restraint and non-lethal force all the time whenever these topics come up. But it's just as disingenuous to downplay the actions of the victims that brought them to the point of conflict.
