Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<Marriage by the state is primarily concerned with property rights, inheritance, health care decisions, etc. Yes, it also establishes a legal relationship for a person's children, but that is just a minor part of what legal marriage is all about.>> Road Trip, the state pushes marriage because it promotes strong families that have children in the best possible environment. Everything else is secondary. Without children in the equation, we could all just shack up and get a lawyer to write up where our money and property should go.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Dabob, don't be taking STPH off the hook. I still expect him to answer the question, not just give me a fishing expidition that avoids my point.> It's not a fishing expedition. He's looking at it from a different angle than I am, is all. And your second paragraph, though technically true, could be used to overlook precedent in ANY case for any reason, on the theory that any precedent can be overturned. Technically true, but in the real world it happens fairly rarely. <But you continue to ignore the impact on society that changing the meaning of marriage ( one man and one woman ) would have on our socity.> I don't ignore it. Far from it. In my view, allowing gay people into the institution of marriage is the right thing to do not only for gay people, but because it will have a positive impact on society as a whole. There are two main reasons for this: 1). It is in society's interests for people to form stable, lasting relationships (roadtrip put it well in #132); 2). Equality is itself a benefit to society. Many people asked what "benefit" society would have if blacks didn't have to ride at the back of the bus. Well, it wasn't a tangible "benefit" in the usual sense, but it was an enormous one to our country anyway. Equality is itself a virtue and treating people equally under the law is its own reward. Can you deny that the society is better now that no one is forced to ride at the back of the bus or use segregated facilities, even though conservatives at the time were certain that it would be "the end of our society (or 'way of life') as we know it?" People predicted the same thing when women were given the right to vote. Look it up if you don't believe me. All sorts of dire predictions were made, very much including the undermining of marriage (!). Yet, aren't we a better, stronger society for women being equal with men legally? So far from gay marriage weakening our society, I believe it would strengthen it.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<And you continue to ignore the fact that the definition of marriage has changed over time and will continue to do so. In good ways and in bad ways>> One part has not changed regarding marraige here in America, the greatest country in the world... One man and one woman. Want to change this?? Put it on the ballot.
Originally Posted By mele Beau, in your head you must tell yourself that you are a hip guy who likes gays but your posts here clearly show your real feelings. Gays are icky. Just the fact that you eventually mention anal sex and bathhouses proves that you have some dark thoughts about homosexuals.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Dabob, I respect your argument. At least your making an argument. <<I don't ignore it. Far from it. In my view, allowing gay people into the institution of marriage is the right thing to do not only for gay people, but because it will have a positive impact on society as a whole.>> The data from countries who have allowed gay marraige simply don't back this up. Look, gays can live together. Gays get married all the time by the way. They should be able to have civil unions that provide protections and benefits for them. I have met many a gay person who is fine with this. I have also met gay people who can't understand why there is a big push for full blown marriage. I KNOW you have met these people Dabob. Well, these gay people are right. Gay's are not the oppressed people they used to be. They make good money, they are hollywood icons, they dress well, and they usually look better than most straight guys. LOL Fine. People are OK with this. but the marriage thing................ that is where you lose people and actually cause a backlash.
Originally Posted By mele <<One part has not changed regarding marraige here in America, the greatest country in the world... One man and one woman.>> So, one man and one woman is what makes marriage great, and has made America great (love the flag waving, BTW). I would have thought the things that make marriage so wonderful and powerful are the emotions that bring people together to marry, the dedication to stick together through difficult times, to create a strong, loving family unit. All of these things have become disposable in the marriages of good ol' America but by God, it's still between one man and one woman! Millions of throw away marriages and families. Wow, that's a thing to be proud of!
Originally Posted By Beaumandy << Just the fact that you eventually mention anal sex and bathhouses proves that you have some dark thoughts about homosexuals.>> Again Mel, as people I don't have a problem with gays. But yes, I admit, the mere though of touching a dudes crank gives me the most horrifying case of the creeps possible. I have no idea how or why a guy would want to be with a guy in the bath house or anyhwere else. Two chicks???? Now that is hot!! But that has NOTHING to do with protecting the meaning of marriage which is set up to create strong families that produce children who have a mom and a dad.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy << All of these things have become disposable in the marriages of good ol' America but by God, it's still between one man and one woman! Millions of throw away marriages and families. Wow, that's a thing to be proud of! >> You seem to want to play a losing hand here mele. I know marriage has taken a huge hit in the last 30 years among straight people. Yet you want to even attack it further by bluring the lines of what marriage means.? How is allowing gay marriage going to help all the bad marraiges that straight people are screwing up?
Originally Posted By mele You believe giving gays the right to marry is a losing hand. I think it will reclaim some of best aspects of marriage. You think of the negative, I think of the positive.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe Mele--Just an impartial observation but it seems that you have quite the issues with the gay question. I'm not one to judge Mele as you seem to have with Beau. I went through all that stuff more than 35 years ago in college. My roomate was gay and I hung out in every gay bar in Ohio and Mass for many years. I am very obsessed with the female body so I never had any experiences. The point is that I think you should not judge others as you are telling them not to judge gays. We all have our imperfections.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Dabob, I respect your argument. At least your making an argument. > <<I don't ignore it. Far from it. In my view, allowing gay people into the institution of marriage is the right thing to do not only for gay people, but because it will have a positive impact on society as a whole.>> <The data from countries who have allowed gay marraige simply don't back this up.> They don't not back it up, either. You have that ONE guy, Kurtz, who is making a cottage industry for himself looking at Europe and gay marriage, but his arguments are based on faulty premises (see #33). The biggest one is that he assumes that allowing gay marriage, and making straight marriage and straight co-habitation more the same legally necessarily go together, and would necessarily happen here. That just doesn't follow, and in fact, I don't think straight marriage and straight cohabitation should become more the same legally. Marriage OUGHT to remain distinct legally, with specific protections AND obligations. I just want it open to gay people also. <Look, gays can live together. Gays get married all the time by the way.> I know. I did. My church recognizes it. My family recognizes it. My friends recognizes it. My country does not. Don't you think that matters? <They should be able to have civil unions that provide protections and benefits for them.> Well, that's a step forward. <I have met many a gay person who is fine with this. I have also met gay people who can't understand why there is a big push for full blown marriage. I KNOW you have met these people Dabob. Well, these gay people are right.> I think they're partially right. I would be okay with it if civil unions were ABSOLUTELY EQUAL to marriage in all but name, on the state AND federal level. Then we're just talking semantics, and most people would call it "marriage" anyway, as all my straight friends and family do now with my relationship which isn't even a recognized civil union (because NY state doesn't have that yet). That kind of full equality in all but name is unlikely to happen, though. Even in the states that have civil unions - and in fact even in Mass. with full marriage equality - the federal government does not recognize it, and that has real-world implications as well as moral ones. <Gay's are not the oppressed people they used to be. They make good money, they are hollywood icons, they dress well, and they usually look better than most straight guys. LOL> I don't. And the "good money" thing, BTW, is largely fiction. The two reasons gays are thought to have more money than straights are 1). More gay couples are DINKS (dual income/no kids) than straight couples, and 2). It's a lot easier to be out if you have some money. Who's more likely to be out? The single guy in NY where gays are pretty much accepted who's making 50,000 and doesn't fear being fired, or the guy in Alabama making 20,000 at Cracker Barrel, who has made it a point to fire people simply because they're gay? The percentage of middle or upper class gays that are out is a lot higher than poor gays, who remain largely invisible, and absent from these surveys that conclude we "make more money" than straights. <Fine. People are OK with this. but the marriage thing................ that is where you lose people and actually cause a backlash.> I agree about the backlash, and believe me, it's an ugly thing to see if you're on the receiving end. But backlashes are often necessary before equality. We've seen it with every movement for equal rights.
Originally Posted By mele joe, i've been having this argument with beau for YEARS. I'm only commenting on the many statements he's made. I find it HILARIOUS that you find that I have issues and think that Beau does not. Aren't you being rather judgemental by saying I have "issues" when I am just participating in a discussion along with everyone else here? Care to explain that one? But I'll play along with you, yes, I have issues with people who view gays in a negative way simply for the fact that they are gay. Everyone has flaws, but being gay isn't one of them. It really bothers me and hurts me that people are denied something that I can automatically enjoy simply for being what God made them to be. Yes, I do believe that people are for the most part, born gay or meant to be gay. Most people believe they were born straight yet want to believe that something bad happened to a gay person that caused them to be gay. While I've never hung out in gay bars, one of my step brothers is gay and it was something we always knew. I am bisexual and I have ALWAYS known it. If I could pick and choose my sexuality, I would be a lesbian because men have abused me sexually my entire life. But that isn't how sexuality works. I don't know why some people insist on telling people how they should live their lives when they clearly have no understanding of what is really going on. So yeah, I guess I do have issues. It hurts me that the people I love are judged and not allowed to create legal, loving, stable marriages and families. If that comes off as judgemental to you, well, tough.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy << I find it HILARIOUS that you find that I have issues and think that Beau does not.>> LOL!!! Hey, Joe is a very smart man living in a gated community.
Originally Posted By mele Yeah, sometimes I think that the "gate" is run by a state worker in scrubs. LOL
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<I am bisexual and I have ALWAYS known it. If I could pick and choose my sexuality, I would be a lesbian>> Whoaa!! I didn't know this. Is there anyone on here that is flat out not gay besides Me, Joe, RoadTrip and Douglas... and a few others I am forgetting? LOL
Originally Posted By Beaumandy The "gay marriage" thing should have a different name. It should be called " the protection of traditional marraige " because the real fight is to keep marraige one man and one woman... not to hate gays... if that makes sense. Dabob, good points again. Your take on gays having money was intersting and something I have never considred. You make sense. I also enjoyed all the gay guys who were in the show I saw in Vegas the other night. See, I am down with the fellas. I even have a Village People album mele! So there.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Well, you can get yourself clean and have a hot meal. You can do whatever you please at the YMCA.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <The "gay marriage" thing should have a different name. It should be called " the protection of traditional marraige " because the real fight is to keep marraige one man and one woman... not to hate gays... if that makes sense.> I'm sure you've made that make sense to yourself. But it's still fighting to deny people equality under the law. There were lots and lots of people who favored segregation that were not, at bottom, hateful people. They told themselves they were just fighting to keep their "way of life" or their "heritage" or something that sounded good like that. So you tell yourself you're fighting for "the protection of traditional marriage." But there are real people on the other end of your fight, in both cases, that are being hurt, no matter what you call your fight in your own mind.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy I suppose Dadob, but the people I know who are against gay marriage don't dislike gay people. They dislike changing the meaning of marriage.
