Originally Posted By mousermerf Ken, unusable show elements trotted out for press events and then allowed to rott are a recent WDI invention. Blame them, it's their fault.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<and then allowed to rott are a recent WDI invention. Blame them, it's their fault.>> I'm not sure you can really blame WDI for this one. Shouldn't we blame WDW management for not paying to fix these things properly??
Originally Posted By mousermerf Unfixable is unfixable. The Yeti should not have broken its foundation. That is a design problem.
Originally Posted By leobloom >I have seen broken ride elements but only once, the next time they were working.> That is, if you knew the elements were broken. I'm sure a lot of people ride Everest and see the strobe Yeti and assume that's the way it's supposed to work. That's just one case, but you can be sure there are examples like that in most of the rides. As I've mentioned before, when I worked at Living with the Land, there were effects that never worked the entire time I was there, but they were never fixed and no one in management was concerned about that.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper The yeti's problems aren't in the foundation. It' much more complicated than that... But from what I know it was a WDI slip up. Fixable? Yes. Cheap? Probably not.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>So Goofyernmost - you admit you don't understand what's going on but feel you are qualified to pass judgment on the manner in which it is being operated? That is illogical and contradictory.<<< No, I didn't pass judgement on the manner in which it is being operated except in the sense of how it matters to the regular, non-obsessed guest. They don't notice! Plain and simple. Purist do, and they are the ones with there socks in a knot. I think I have a right to express that because that is what this thread is about. It was neither contradictory or illogical. Expecting perfection at every turn...now that is illogical. Purists are a small minority. Regular fans are the vast majority. I fully understand the concern held by people that want Disney to be perfect. I also understand that it's not going to happen right now. Even when everyone was talking about how wonderful DL was during the 50th. I was there and saw all kinds of maintenance problems. Know what...it didn't spoil my trip at all. Would I like to see Disney in perfect mode? Yes! Do I expect too? No! Do I think that anyone will jump up and do it because I want it that way? Absolutely no!
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper >>No, I didn't pass judgement on the manner in which it is being operated except in the sense of how it matters to the regular, non-obsessed guest. They don't notice! Plain and simple.<< Sorry, but this is completely false. Regular guests do notice. I've had plenty of conversations with "regular" guests while working that point to the complete opposite. They know things have fallen. They know maintenance isn't what it used to be, and they aren't happy about it.
Originally Posted By leobloom You know, the question of whether or not "regular" guests are aware of the maintenance problems isn't even the question. The question is whether or not the maintenance problems results in an inferior park experience that diminishes future business. The "regular" guest (I think the term itself is misguided) might not know the Yeti is supposed to move, might not know the Yeti is not operating in the way it was designed to operate. The regular guest might not notice the broken AAs in Living with the Land (when I worked there, at least). But all those maintenance issues DO affect the park experience, whether the guest knows it or not. The fact that the Yeti isn't functioning properly means the ride isn't living up to its designers' intentions, and the ride is consequently not as impressive as it should be. (This is ignoring the fact that EE should have had more than 1 AA in the first place.) This sloppy management style will eventually catch up with Disney, because guests will eventually get wise to the game (or will simply write Disney off as overpriced for the product). I, for one, wouldn't waste money going to DAK if I knew EE is malfunctioning and management assumes I'll still pay to go. That's an insult to me, the paying guest. For all the legendary ass-kissing Disney has done for its guests, I really think they look at guests today as suckers. "Yeti doesn't work? Screw it, guests'll never notice!" Part of the problem is guests who feel entitled to ride EE even if it's malfunctioning. Disney needs to have the guts to shut down attractions that need maintenance and be firm with guests who feel like they deserve to ride every single attraction even if it's bad show.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> But all those maintenance issues DO affect the park experience, whether the guest knows it or not. The fact that the Yeti isn't functioning properly means the ride isn't living up to its designers' intentions, and the ride is consequently not as impressive as it should be. (This is ignoring the fact that EE should have had more than 1 AA in the first place.) << Great point leobloom. It's like reading the Readers Digest version of a great novel. You miss so much that was intended to enhance the whole experience.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>Part of the problem is guests who feel entitled to ride EE even if it's malfunctioning. Disney needs to have the guts to shut down attractions that need maintenance and be firm with guests who feel like they deserve to ride every single attraction even if it's bad show.<<< It may be a bad show based on what the original intent was, however, to say that the fun of that ride should be denied to everyone just because a split second of the show isn't up to expectations of the designers just boggles my mind. This is especially true if they don't know exactly how to fix the problem without closing it down. It is a problem only to the designers and the handful of people that know how it was supposed to operate. It takes away zero from someone that doesn't. It is there, it is seen and since it all happens too fast to appreciate anyway, it isn't a shut it down type of problem. It will be repaired or permanently chalked up as what seemed like a good idea that doesn't work, at the next rehab. Not all ideas are gems. There are bigger issues that effect guest enjoyment in my opinion and those are not even mentioned because those in the know benefit from them. One would be things like Fastpass. All of you will argue that Fastpass is like a gift from heaven and if you are able to conform to all the things that are needed to utilize Fastpass to the fullest then you see it as a totally positive item. If you are not able to conform, for whatever reason, then it is going to effect how you view the "magic". That will drive more people away then any remote malfunctioning animatronic. The Fastpass thought will not be considered a negative public influence. Why? Because all Disney veterans know how to use them and do, even to the point of abuse. Tell the folks that didn't have a choice that they are enjoying themselves. I think you will get some pretty strange looks when you do.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >> You sound like a bleeding heart liberal. << <<Edward Asner, Carroll O'Connor and Ed Begley Jr. are my heros!>> All fine actors ... you know I'm old enough to remember being a kid when the fam gathered around the teevee to watch 'All in The Family' ... great stuff. >> They're a business and have every right to charge whatever the market will bear. << <<After all, unrestained capitalism is the American way, let the poor eat cake.>> Actually, of late, it's more like 'let em die in the streets.' Of course, I have nothing against capitalism ... except when all the people with the most chips at the table, not only won't let me in on their game, but are all cheating. >> Are you a Commie? << <<No commrade, but I know one!>> I'll bet it's that JT kid! >> Yeah. Just what I thought. You just want them to spend, spend, spend. It almost makes me want to turn on Glen Beck and cry too because ... (starting to whimper ... ooh ... there's a sob coming ... there it is!) I just love my country so much. And that Obama is going to turn us into a SOCIALIST state. <<Spend, spend, spend is piped in subliminaly with the back ground music at the parks at WDW. I tried to watch Glenn Beck once, but I lasted longer watching Stacey do the top 7 at WDW.>> Well, c'mon Stacey is a lot hotter. And she's only an Aswad, itstead of an asswad. Besides, I doubt even any gay man could 'last' watching Beck! <<NO WAY will Obama turn us into a socialist nation. We barely own 80% of the banks, and less than 75% of the car companies so far. >> Key words ... so far. >><<My feeling is we will have a long wait for better times.<<>> >> ~Me too ... pass the vodka!~ << <<Only if it's Stolichnaya!>> For you ... anything! ~Meathead~
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Ahhh...a topic I can put myself into. Personally what bothers me more than the lack of new attractions, is the horrid state of the MK. Pirates breaks down almost once a day. Jungle Cruise's effects are in terrible shape. Peter Pan looks like my room during finals week(not pretty), and the rest of Fantasyland doesn't look much better. Buzz looks like it hasn't gotten a coat of paint in years. If Disney doesn't want to build new attractions because of the economy, fine. But they should at least take some time to fix the flagship.>> Ah ... but why fix things when Disney won't acknowledge they have any issues at all? There's no Al Lutz in O-Town. Besides, doncha know the MK has been packed all week ... Phase 4 closings and all (just don't remind anyone that MK capacity is likely 15,000-20,000 less than it was in say 1992 ... or that Disney might have a vested interest in lowering the threshold further to make headlines on other fan sites!) ~You mean that Pirate's supposed to move when he talks?~
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Wont happen. A good dose of J. Lass spending less time hanging out in DL and pretending it's his personal train set while staying the dream suite with him family and perhaps getting his butt on a plane to Orlando might help. But it wont until someone tells him the suite over pirates was built for guests, not his personal play thing. >> I can see why they still talk so fondly of you on another MAGICal Disney site, Merfy. John is spread thin as it is ... and WDW's exec 'leadership' team likely wants him as far away as possible. They'd love it if he spent every weekend down in that suite. I truly think (just an opinion) that Phil Holmes craps his pants when he hears John is in the MK. ~Can I call you Magical Merf on that 'other' site?~
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<As a business man, I can understand that thinking ahead and pulling in expenses is a wise fiscal move at this point.>> Except the WDW business model since around 1995 has been one of allowing parks to get stale, marketing the whole of the resort while the individual parks, lands, attractions etc (the Disney Details) slide down a slippery slope to where things like 'show' are paid mere lip service to. I get that we're in a very bad recession (if not a depression) right now. The problem is WDW has been run in a fiscally conservative way to the nth degree for a almost a decade and a half. The MK is tired, old, and stale and it has nothing to do with how often one has visited. Even a first time visitor can tell when an animatronic isn't moving, when doors are rotting away, when grass is dead etc ... I am tired of people making excuses for people at TDO and Burbank working hard at destroying every reason why I love WDW. <<So, could things be better? Certainly! Is spending money that won't improve the bottom line a way to keep our favorite places operating? I don't think so. Can we wait it out until times improve? I think it is a small price to pay for the ability to visit a great place somewhere down the road.>> Normally, I might agree with you. But considering the past track record ... Disney hasn't added a major attraction to MK since 1992 (let that soak in), I say SPEND! The 40th Anniversary is coming and it sure appears like there will be nothing happening ... meanwhile 20 major projects ... everything from Mermaid for MK to Monsters coaster for Studios to major new area for DAK ... sit in deep freeze. Where was the spending during the GREAT years of Bubba and W? <<Remember, even Disney isn't a bottomless pit. Some of the major corporations that are now sucking seaweed, were and are way bigger than Disney. They are not recession proof. Since it is a company that provides amusement, I wouldn't be looking for any bailout anytime soon either.>> If Iger, Staggs and Rasulo could get away with it, rest assured they'd be on Capital Hill with bags (and not those small ones they give out at MNSSHP either!) <<Those of us that go there at the drop of a hat, are moaning that there is nothing new there. To those that have never been, everything is new.>> Yeah. And new crap is crap. And poorly maintained great attractions are still poorly maintained great attractions. <<It's a matter of majority and perspective. As long as they keep showing up, the guys at the top are absolutely right. There is no need to spend money. Eventually that will decline also and eventually money will loosen up again, and investment in future growth will start again.>> Ah ... so we'll get to see more pics of Disney's Grand Floridian Beach Villas ... or they'll add a new soundtrack to the snowglobe parade and call it new? The investment wasn't there in the supposed great days of the late 90s or the rebound after 9/11 ... there's no reason to believe that even if Obama is somehow able to clean up the worst mess any Prez has inherited in ... I dunno how long ... that will translate into Iger saying 'here's $300 million for the MK.' <,Simple economics. Large crowds do no necessarily translate into huge profits.This is true especially in light of the huge discounts that Disney has had to give to get those large crowds.>> True ... but that's not the point. Disney is greedy ... they didn't need 30,000 resort rooms/timeshares ... and they didn't need four parks ... and they didn't need to try and take every penny every tourists brings to central Florida. Greed got them into this mess and following the classic greed response (don't invest, fire people, cut quality, lower standards, make Wall Street happy) ain't a long term recipe for anything except further brand degradation. ~Andy Vanderbilt is a twit!~
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Sorry, during my stint as a CM specific actions were taken by the WDW as a whole which degraded the guest experience. There is a decline in maintenance. Rides used to have books called "OG's" or Operational Guidelines. Those guidelines state exactly which show components need to go out in order for the ride to be called 101 - something that CM's of the attraction did. Now those guidelines are gone or ignored and the management of an area is the one who calls an attraction 101. Major show elements that in the OG would require a manual E-stop and shut down now have an attraction still operating as normal while maintenance attempts to fix it - often unable to do so until the ride is shut down for the night. I saw this happen - you cannot tell me that as a guest you just didn't notice anything. I saw show elements break and never get fixed, I still see it happen today when I visit. The morning checklists of show elements are merely crossed out each morning as part remain unfixed. Before, the ride would not open, but now it will because the management says so. Right now on other forums people are working themselves up over the addition of more blue triangle to spaceship earth. That has not happened. It has not happened in over half a year. People will not listen. Just as much as you are choosing not to listen that upkeep is down and effect are broken. They are. You may not notice them, but they are. I can understand that people may not have the experience or knowledge to see exactly what is wrong but please don't give Disney a pass on this one. If you don't see anything wrong it is because you are choosing not to. >> Great post. Well said. ~Absolutely MAGICal!~
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Sorry, but this is completely false. Regular guests do notice. I've had plenty of conversations with "regular" guests while working that point to the complete opposite. They know things have fallen. They know maintenance isn't what it used to be, and they aren't happy about it.>> Of course you're right. But what TDO asks is 'can you show me in a Power Point how much money we are losing because of this lack of concern over upkeep and quality show? Oh you can't. Get out of my fortress my little pretty or ... oops ... don't know what got into me. ~Off to see the Wizard~
Originally Posted By leobloom Goofyernmost, I'm a WDW veteran and I don't like FP at all. I'm sure there are other WDW 'purists' (is that what you're called if you think the Yeti should function??) who feel likewise about FP. >It will be repaired or permanently chalked up as what seemed like a good idea that doesn't work, at the next rehab. Not all ideas are gems.> And when exactly would be the proper time for that refurb? You said it's not worth fixing since it's only "a split second". So by your logic, I'm left wondering why fix it all?
Originally Posted By mousermerf If anything, this thread illustrates why artistic and creative endeavors have such a hard time gaining traction in the US while other countries actively seek out such projects. This mentality that you shouldn't worry about show quality is not the way everyone thinks. Pride in your work used to be a mainstay of American culture but somewhere it was lost. We mass produce mediocre these days. That noted, Walt Disney is the one who said "Quality will out." If any company should go against the grain and insist on quality in their work is should be the Disney company. To forget that ideology is going to be the death of the company.
Originally Posted By Mr X "Right now on other forums people are working themselves up over the addition of more blue triangle to spaceship earth. That has not happened. It has not happened in over half a year." I don't understand this part. ?? help?
Originally Posted By mousermerf The stupid blue triangles at the end of SSE. They were installed during a brief closure after SSE had reopened to the public from this big to-do refurb. The lights in the finale don't point at them, no explanation has ever been given, and they're just sort of "there." For a while new triangles were added periodically and the fandom kept chanting that it was awaiting the day the switch was flipped and SSE would go from crappy black-curtain-mess to visual treat. Never happened. Wont happen. Still, the fanboys keep reporting that new triangles have been installed or that there is sign of work in the descent of SSE. There is not. Nothing has changed in months. Still, people report as of last week that it has been "tweaked" or that they see process. Delusional. Full force delusional. And they work themselves in a foamy fanboy lather feeding each other these lies.
