Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Its a fact that if you look into the real world the foreign cars are made better thing is a myth driven by people who read consumer reports and don't really know about cars.>> Consumer Reports collects data from people who have problems with the cars they own. I'm fairly confident that data is not biased or influenced in any way by CU. Using that data, Foreign cars, especially Japanese makes, have had a pretty good overall track record when it comes to reliability. In the past, American cars had a much worse record, but in recent years have improved their quality a great deal, to the point of being at or near where foreign cars have traditionally always been. Meanwhile, foreign cars quality has dropped off slightly, or in the case of some brands, quite a bit.
Originally Posted By avro_imagineer Ford actually has met Toyota and Honda's quality in recent reports. Part however may be attributed to the purchasing patterns. At first imports were purchased by more affluent people who made decent wages. These people could afford to maintain their cars and tended to be less abusive of their automobiles. The poor "trailer trash" and social assistance people tended to drive used American cars. Also the model line ups are traditionally simpler in Japanese automobiles, they make 5 or 6 packages, whereas in the past domestics used options, where there would be hundreds of possible production variations. Now that both seem to use package groups there is less production variation. Also you have "captive imports" with Japanese cars being sold as American (A lot of earlier Mitsubishi for example) and Japanese cars made in America. In my province current production vehicles include but is not limited to: Ford Crown Victoria, Mercury Grand Marquis, Lincoln Town Car, Ford Edge, Ford Flex, Chrysler Town & Country, Dodge Grand Caravan, Toyota Corolla, Volkswagen Routan, Toyota Matrix, Lexus RX370, Honda Civic, Honda Ridgeline, Toyota RAV4... As you can see there is a mix of American, Japanese and European brands. This is mitigating the "Quality of made in country X". The simple Dodge van is made in at least 3 countries, the Corolla in countless countries (As factories and as kits)
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << At first imports were purchased by more affluent people who made decent wages. >> That is absolutely the opposite of what occurred. Imports arrived on the scene in the late 60s and 70s as low cost alternatives to domestic models. Nearly every foreign auto company from the far east came to this country selling low-cost compact cars. That was their entry into the market. They appealed to the more cost conscious classes of society.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Nearly every foreign auto company from the far east came to this country selling low-cost compact cars. That was their entry into the market.>> Look how far Hyundai has come in 20 years, from the Excel to the Genesis. And just wait for the next wave of cheap imports when the Chinese land their cars on these shores.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> ***WOW....you really don't like TT do you. I'm not a big fan either. I think I road it a total of 3 times, and one of those I had to walk off it*** Good lord, how'd you accomplish THAT? I always figured you had to wait til the end of the ride! << We were on the track about 200 feet from the unload, and they simply walked out there, and got us.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> This is a company that should cease to exist. << That would be throwing out the baby with the bath water. >> ~No tax $$$ for GM!~ << I agree with that. They need to file bankrupcy, and restructure. That way they could renegotiate their union contracts, and get their executive salaries inline.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <<Its a fact that if you look into the real world the foreign cars are made better thing is a myth driven by people who read consumer reports and don't really know about cars.>> yep that's me-I've owned over 40 cars in my life- used to restore them, raced them when younger (couple of trophies in the garage ) -- but I guess I don't live whatever real world this is as I drive BMW 3 series for the last 10 years. Find me a better balanced car for the money( and I look all the time ) and I'll buy it. btw - comes with 4yrs- 50K FREE maintenance because it requires so little-not in spite of. just call me car stupid I guess - geez
Originally Posted By avro_imagineer my = me Those days a CVCC was a pretty basic car, didn't even have autolocking doors...
Originally Posted By vbdad55 >Give my your Camaro, I'll take it off your hands then.< 40 years ago is a LONG time (I wasbuildalot better than too) - muscle cars were the heyday of something different - but came the 70's and some of the worst rolling crap ever built..and they knew it but didn't think they had any competition - and may pay for it today with their very existence. Cars delivered with hundreds and hundreds of defects..designed like crap . there's plenty of American cars from the 40's 50's I'd love to have ---- but plenty of company's that were bellweathers then are gone today - my guess is GM is going to follow them. For some of the cars I bought that required weekly trip to the dealership with lists of things that didn't work - broke off - fell off etc...in the mid 70's to mid 80's ....and the crappy way one was treated at those dealerships...I guess this is a comeuppance.... I feel bad for individual workers,but for the SOB's that have run those companies into the ground I feel nothing.
Originally Posted By dshyates I want to restore a Ford Grenada to its original glory. Anyone remember this commercial that compared it to a Caddy and Benz? <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWqlebeYWwc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lebeYWwc</a>
Originally Posted By itsme >>Consumer Reports collects data from people who have problems with the cars they own. I'm fairly confident that data is not biased or influenced in any way by CU. >> Yep that they do and that's how they base their reports. But one could look at what is posted here and come out with a report that Disney is the greatest piece of garbage in the world. Why doesn't consumer reports look into/talk to dealership service depts and look at the amount of repairs that are actually done? >> yep that's me-I've owned over 40 cars in my life- used to restore them, raced them when younger (couple of trophies in the garage ) -- but I guess I don't live whatever real world this is as I drive BMW 3 series for the last 10 years. Find me a better balanced car for the money( and I look all the time ) and I'll buy it.>> Didn'T say the were all junk or there were none better. Just said that its a myth that they are better then the American ones. As for the maintenance thing, most cars today don't require the maintenance schedule that older models did. With everyone using platinum spark plugs, synthetic fluids, 100k antifreeze, ceramic brakes etc most cars don't need much more then visual inspections before 50k. That's kinda just a marketing gimmick, plus it helps keep people coming to the dealership for service and not their local mechanic. A friend of mine who owns a dealership ran a deal once in a while where if you bought a car they gave you free tires for life. Now that sounds like your really getting something but when you think about it the length people keep cars and those who don't get them aligned{voided deal} it didn't really cost him anything but they did sell a lot of cars because of it.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Why doesn't consumer reports look into/talk to dealership service depts and look at the amount of repairs that are actually done?>> Because that makes no sense. Using your own analogy, that's like going to Disney and asking them what is wrong with their product. I am not contradicting what you said; if you look at current reliability ratings for cars and trucks in CR, it does show American cars have matched or nearly matched the quality of foreign cars. But in the relatively recent past, that was not the case. American cars were indeed not as good, and that is why the foreign makes still have a better reputation. But anyway, reliability is not the only thing that has given foreign cars a better reputation, there is also design quality, ergonomics, and driving dynamics. American cars had to play catch-up on all those things too.
Originally Posted By fkurucz FWIW every Asian car I have owned has failed to live up to the "ratings" it got on CR. A great deal of how cars are perceived depends on how the are marketed. In the US Hondas are perceived as youthful. In the UK they are considered old geezer cars. I recall that when davewasbaloo was shopping for cars some time ago that Hondas weren't even on his radar. If he lived in the US a Honda Accord would have been considered a no brainer for someone in his demographic.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<In the US Hondas are perceived as youthful.>> I wouldn't say it's entirely perception. The aftermarket for Hondas is ginormous; they are the new hobby cars for the young generation.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Look how far Hyundai has come in 20 years, from the Excel to the Genesis. And just wait for the next wave of cheap imports when the Chinese land their cars on these shores.>> Yep ... I test drove a Genesis recently and while I couldn't believe I was driving a Hyundai with a price tag over $40,000, I gotta admit the car was very close to Mercedes/Lexus/BMW quality ... not quite ready to buy one ... and will likely wind up with anothe Benz when the time comes, but the fact you can mention them in the same breath shows how far they have come. ~The Chinese love their Buicks~
Originally Posted By MPierce >> ~The Chinese love their Buicks~ << One out of every one hundred Chinese own a Bucik. Of course only one out of every 10 Chinese own an automobile.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I have said this before on threads that wind up being about cars ... and why not ... much like DL's T-Land before it was ruined ... we are a world on the move ... but the American auotmakers suckered me for over a decade's worth of Fords, Pontiacs and Dodges that were all made to fall apart and result in lots of costly repairs. At best they were shoddy, at worst 'lemons'. That's it. I'm done with them. I don't care what anyone tells me or how they've supposedly improved. They all consistently screwed me from the purchase to the quality to the service. And this isn't ancient history. My last American car was owned in 2000. I've now had strictly Hondas and Mercedes ... and they've ALL been 99% trouble free. ALL. EVERY car. If I add in the Mercedes and Hondas owned by family in the past decade as well as my autos, you're talking about a few dozen autos. ALL TROUBLE FREE. It's very simple. They've earned my business ... and even the benefit of the doubt if/when I have a problem. GM, Ford and Chrysler have all chased me away for good. I am not coming back and I'll shout from the rooftops for others to do likewise. This is what Disney needs to be careful of. Because even though my family owned Toyotas when I was a kid, I was an American car spirit. I wanted to buy American autos. But there's only so many times you put your hand on a hot stove before (even a dimwitted spirit) you realize that's it. I was there when I dumped my last Dodge ... after only 2 1/2 years because they couldn't get auto windows to operate from Day 1. You just don't have those issues with Japanese or German autos, even when they're built here in the USA or in Canada. That tells me the problem is with the companies. Not that Obama listens to me (although to his credit he'd be intelligent enough to understand what I was saying unlike say ... the guy before him), but I would have taken every dollar given to Detroit and spread it out amongst every American adult making under $200,000 a year and seen what that stimulated. Rewarding incompetance, arrogance and avarice is something I believe is truly unpatriot and unAmerican even if it has become in vogue. ~Burn Baby, Burn~
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Not that Obama listens to me (although to his credit he'd be intelligent enough to understand what I was saying unlike say ... the guy before him), but I would have taken every dollar given to Detroit and spread it out amongst every American adult making under $200,000 a year and seen what that stimulated. << Class warfare, and a run on WalMart gift cards.
