Originally Posted By FerretAfros It just seems to me that most people that I have run into aren't like this. If someone recognized God's existence, they usually also realize His power. They know that at the end of the day, He will always get his way, and it's a lot easier and more fulfilling to comply with His will. While it may not solve all problems, I have found that it definately takes care of a lot of things. The peace that following His will, for me at lease, brings just can't be compared, so I don't really see why people would actively oppose it. Since I've never really had a chance to talk to somebody who feels that way, I was just wondering.
Originally Posted By mele <<While it may not solve all problems, I have found that it definately takes care of a lot of things. The peace that following His will, for me at lease, brings just can't be compared, so I don't really see why people would actively oppose it.>> You might feel a little differently if you had lost so many of your children. Even burying one child would totally devastate most people. I don't know what you've experienced in your life but losing 5 children is beyond the scope of any suffering most people can imagine. I really don't think most people would just accept it as God's will and not feel angry. It would most likely take decades to come to any sort of real peace. ((((-em))))
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I definately understand that sentiment, but I guess I just tend to see it in a bigger light. He knows what's going on everywhere, all the time. I can hardly tell what's going on in my life half the time, so it only seem fair to let Him control some of it. While it can definately cause a lot of disappointment and sorrow on occasions, it also seems to lead to the overall greater good. There's no doubt that there will always be sad moments in peoples lives, and it sounds like -em has had more than her (his?) fair share and my heart goes out to her (him?), but I tend to feel that following His will eventually leads to the best final outcome.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost OK, but, why some more that others. Em, my heart goes out to you. I have had nightmares imagining the loss of one of my children, and that sent enough anxiety for an Army, just thinking about it. I am usually dead inside, but, I salute you for the courage to stay on course after so much heartache. In a way, I hope God does have a presence in the "afterlife" because I would sure like some of those questions answered.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 In my opinion No, God does not exist. He is a commercialized figure, religions use to make money, if their were no God, their would be no church, and the billions people give each year will go to more practical uses.... Even if God exists, he only exists in the way churches use him today, as a figure to make money for them, lots of it.
Originally Posted By ShivaThDestroyer WilliamK99, one thing you should understand. Religion is of man, not God. Regardless of what man does with religion, it does not negate the existence of God.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 It has destroyed any semblance of God.... Even if he is real, he doesn't exist except as a commercialized image. Look at all these fancy churches, and the "tax-free" status of a lot of these places. Churches are "whores" selling "Eternal Happiness with God" instead of sex, while most church-goers are just "johns" hoping the money they give to the church will be enough to get them into Heaven and have God forgive them for their sins... I am willing to say about 10% of Church-goers actually truly believe in God with all of their heart, and if they believe that Good for them... My problem is those who go to church every Sunday, and then Monday are out drinking, having affairs, and acting un-holy, until the following Sunday. That is the majority of Christians in America these days... To quote an old song "God is Dead and noone cares" If God did exist at one time, he doesn't anyone thanks to the people we have become... I apologize if this offended anyone, I just wanted to state my opinion, not put anyone down.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***but I tend to feel that following His will eventually leads to the best final outcome*** Unless it doesn't. What about all those godfearing Jews who (along with their children and their infants) went to the gas chambers? How did being religious work out for them? How compassionate was their god? Where is the "good" in any of that? Or consider the piously religious person who loses EVERYTHING (and I think Em's post highlights the awful possibilities that could happen to ANYONE), should they continue saying "praise the lord...I love him and he watches out for me" without a bad taste in their mouth after bad thing after bad thing after bad thing? For such a person, there really are only two choices. Either stop believing, OR choose to still believe in god but start to wonder if god is all that "perfect" and "good". I think it's extremely understandable, myself.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Regardless of what man does with religion, it does not negate the existence of God.*** Correct. Evidence and logic negate the existence of god.
Originally Posted By mele What does drinking have to do with believing in God? I don't think the 90% of Christians are alcoholics or are having extra-marital affairs, or are pretending. Many people now believe that their relationship with God is something deeper and that living a quiet, "holy" life isn't evil. Some religions believe in no alcohol, no dancing, no music but others believe that doing those things is fun and God wants them to enjoy their lives. It doesn't mean that their relationship with God is fake. You can't judge or know what someone's relationship with God is anymore than you know what someone's marriage is really like.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***My problem is those who go to church every Sunday, and then Monday are out drinking, having affairs, and acting un-holy, until the following Sunday. That is the majority of Christians in America these days...*** It's interesting to me that your two examples are simple vices which generally harm noone (except, when not in moderation, the persons themselves). I personally have no problem with anyone who wants to drink or have sex. I say, go for it if you want. Why is THAT the epitome of "ungodly behavior"? What about harming others? Cheating, stealing, killing? The REALLY bad stuff that so many people do every day. Why is it that religion and "god" always come down to frankly harmless and silly stuff that everyone wants to do (well, men anyway lol) and those folks are condemned while everyone glances over the REALLY sinful stuff which harms us and the world in very real ways?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Evidence and logic negate the existence of god.<<< Not necessarily. If a tree falls in an empty forest, does it make a sound? It is called faith for a reason. On one hand, the stories of the bible could be taught as literature as the Homer's Illiad and Odysee are now. Or there may be a god, one that like in the Matrix allows bad things to happen so we appreciate the good, and learn. My mother turned away from the church after being told her unbaptised son was not going to heaven (my brother died of an undiagnosed hole in his heart, and he was not baptised because my mom was wanted the father there (he was in vietnam, and never came home). All this before the age of 18. She turned away from the church, but rather than become athiest, she became agnostic. Now, I feel similar to Ursula. I do not know if there is a god. I'd like to have one. And I envy those who are at peace because they have faith. But I do agree that organised religion can do a lot of harm, but they can also do a lot of good!
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 It's interesting to me that your two examples are simple vices which generally harm noone (except, when not in moderation, the persons themselves). I personally have no problem with anyone who wants to drink or have sex. I say, go for it if you want.<< So cheating on your wife is OK? Now I don't care if people cheat on their wives, but fo rthose who "believe in God" to do so, is in direct violation of the Bible. But sure, let these so called Christians cheat on their spouses, I mean it's only sex after all...right?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***So cheating on your wife is OK?*** Not if it's not okay with your wife. Aside from that, I don't see any particularly "moral" implications worth discussing. If a husband and wife feel like being permissive about sex, it's noone elses' business. Of course, honesty is paramount. And not just because of religion or whatever. If someone cheats on their partner and brings home a disease, that's terrible. Likewise if they impregnate someone, or otherwise damage the relationship.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I mean it's only sex after all...right?*** Right. There are far more serious things to worry about in this world than intoxication and fornication. Like killing innocent people in some god forsaken war, for example. (just an example...nothing more)
Originally Posted By officerminnie Mele's post #24 pretty much describes how I feel so I won't go into a long diatribe on that part. But I want to add, I do believe in a higher power, but not sure who or what that is. I know something is there that helps guide us through our lives, although it may be a different "something" for each person. I do not, however, believe that any higher power, God or otherwise, is responsible for everything that happens here. I remember 20 years ago when my sister had a baby with severe heart defects and developmental delays. She was not expected to live past the age of 18 months. My sis always got comments from people like "There is a reason for everything, and this is part of God's plan" and "God only gives you what you can handle". Well, I don't buy that. I believe that some things just happen, randomly. It wasn't God who made sure that the small arm of the Y on the 13th chromosome broke off and reattached itself to another. It certainly wasn't payback because my sis didn't pray enough or go to church often enough (she was a practicing Catholic at the time, having converted to Catholicism in college. She "lost" her faith when she lost her baby at 2 1/2 years, but did return to the church where she still attends Mass). I believe it was a fluke of nature, fate, really bad karma, whatever you want to call it. And it really does leave a sour taste in your mouth.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<They know that at the end of the day, He will always get his way, and it's a lot easier and more fulfilling to comply with His will.>> It is never God's will that a child precede his/her parents in death. It is never God's will that a child go to bed hungry. It is never God's will that a woman be abused or raped. It is never God's will that thousands lose their lives in a hurricane or earthquake. In my mind God is a "Big Picture" kind of guy. He does not get involved in the daily happenings of human life. That does not mean prayer is worthless, because I think prayer can result in great insight and direction. But I do not believe prayers are directly answered. It is not God's will that a child die. But He won't stop it either. As I said... He is a big picture kind of guy. There is without a doubt evil in our world, and I think evil is responsible for many of our problems. If God wanted to He could wipe out evil. But He doesn't want to. Not because He is cruel, but because He gave us free will and He is not going to take away our freedom. I know that my viewpoint is greatly different than what is held by most people who consider themselves religious. But I cannot accept that all of the trouble and sorrow in the world is God’s will. That is not the kind of God that I would want to have. It is not the God that I know.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Indeed Roadrip, your view of god is one closer to which I cannot believe. there is an aweful lot of people, omnipotent or not, that's a lot of time to get around. Then again Santa manages to cover all the houses on the same night. Oh wait...
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Ooops, I meant I can believe. sorry, I agree with roadtrip. Hmmmm, I wish we had an edit key, I could blame that rather than not proof reading my posts.
