Originally Posted By PsylocibeFrog Well, John the Baptist after torturing a thief Looks up at his hero the Commander-in-Chief Saying, "Tell me great hero, but please make it brief Is there a hole for me to get sick in?" The Commander-in-Chief answers him while chasing a fly Saying, "Death to all those who would whimper and cry" And dropping a bar bell he points to the sky Saving, "The sun's not yellow it's chicken"
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Originally Posted By Dabob2 Actually, I think there are a lot of assumptions being made here by both left and right, considering that we don't have much information, really, about what this program is and what it entails. To assert at this point that it's either completely harmless on the one hand, or the end of the 4th ammendment on the other, doesn't make sense to me.
Originally Posted By EdisYoda Dabob, the truth is in the middle. I would like to quote the exact text of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America: "Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Now, while some may argue (as has been done at the Supreme Court), that phone records are not private, I suggest that you try and get someone else's phone records by legal means. You will need a court order to do so. The point that is consistently being ignored is that warrents are NOT being issued. There is a means for these warrents to be issued, by a secret court (which may, or may not be legal... not debating that point here). AND these warrents can be issued AFTER the fact if necessary. The point is that not getting warrents is going OUTSIDE the established legal laws of the United States of America. Now, if we, as a country want to change those laws to allow that which is currently illegal, then fine. I don't have a problem with that, as long as that is the will of the country. As for the US Government wanting a database containing the phone numbers of EVERY call made within the borders of the United States (whether or not either party of those conversations are under suspician). Please show me how that does NOT violate the 4th Amendment. If they want my call records (and I have nothing to hide, at least nothing that I know of), then let the government get a warrent like they do in any other criminal case as outlined by our legal system. If they don't want to do that, then either don't ask for my records, or change the law, and therefore the Constitution.
Originally Posted By EdisYoda I would also like to say that I am a follower of history. One of my favorite quotes (who said it, I'm ashamed to say that I don't remember), goes something like this: "He who ignores history is doomed to repeat history." History is full of civilizations who supposedly had safeguards similiar to the Constitution of the United States, and our Bill of Rights, but who let those in power push them aside to take over. In some cases they appeared overnight, in others it took many years, or decades to happen. I am happy to be an American. I can't see myself living anywhere else, however, what I see happening in Washington, reminds me very much of what has happened to cause the downfall of many other country's, including Iraq.
Originally Posted By PsylocibeFrog Yoda i can see you are one of the few who see it coming. Is anyone else imagining what life is like when America ISNT the number 1 super power....what a trip...we'll see it.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Yoda, you are living in a world of theory. I am living in a world of reality and so is the President. The programs he is using to track TERRORISTS are all legal, have been looked at by judges. lawyers and members of congress. There is no violation here. If you really think you are getting screwed answer this please. Should we STOP the NSA terrorist spy program and all it entails? YOu realize over 60% of clear thinking Americans like the program and understand the world we live in requires we watch and track the enemy that is trying to kill all of us as we sit here. If we get hit again there is going to be a massive backlash againt the far left who fight every program that is in place to keep my family dafe from Muhammed the terrorist. It might help if the people who are scared of being spyed on could give us some examples of people who have come forward because their rights have been violated. I don't even need a few hundred or a dozen.. how about 3 cases or even one that backs up the theory we are being spyed on by our government.
Originally Posted By mele My biggest worry isn't that someone will find out something about me and use it against me. As you all know here, I rarely hide any of my secrets. I just can't see government discontinuing to monitor phone records once (or if) terrorism becomes a moot point. Rarely do people or governments give up power once they get it. I also do not trust that every single person in law enforcement or the government has only the nation's best interest at heart. There are evil people in every profession in the world and these people will use whatever power or information they have to do their own will. Do I lie awake at night and worry about this? Not at all. But I know it happens everyday and worrying about it doesn't make me a bad American.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<History is full of civilizations who supposedly had safeguards similiar to the Constitution of the United States, and our Bill of Rights, but who let those in power push them aside to take over.>> People who know anything about the history of this country know that during wars past we have done a LOT more drastic measures to win wars than moniter call patterns. Do I need to go into what Abe Lincoln and FDR did during war time to win? I can imagine the hysteria todays liberal would be causing if they were around during WWII or the Civil war. They would have forced us to lose just so they can keep living in their land of appeasment, misguided theory, and paranoia. Personally, I want my goverment to connect the dots unlike 9-11 when they let is slide.
Originally Posted By PsylocibeFrog What is your definition of liberal, what do you think everyone just fits into this little stereotype that you can pick at, and tear apart with hurtful words and slanderous fear-mongering? you need to consider the fact that none of this matters, how do you have so much faith in this man that you dont know? Left? Right? Up? Down? WE ARE PEOPLE LIVING ON A PIECE OF STOLEN LAND, there is no greater good we have to serve, and WE DONT have to serve imbecilic people who send young men to foreign lands and they come home in boxes. THIS IS TERRIBLE, how can there be this much hate and fear, none of us know what is really happening, and none of us know what is going to happen, worry about yourself man, you also have to consider reality is a variable, think about how different we think, and thinking is what creates everything around you, everyone is running around so damn scared, lets chill, the whole dern world is going to burn anyways, learn to live free and love!
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Originally Posted By Beaumandy Ok Frog..... Mele... good comments. But in wars past once the war was over we went back to normal security measures. We didn't suspend Habeus Corpus forever or keep internment camps going for the Japanese. We did what we had to do to WIN. I really hate terrorists.
Originally Posted By EdisYoda Yes, Beau... other U.S. presidents and administrations have taken more drastic measures... but that still doesn't make it right. This is just like the kid who walked into traffic just because someone else did it. We are fortunate in the United States to be able to speak our minds in a forum such as this. Other countries aren't always so lucky. Maybe we should all stop saying what we think and become mindless followers of those who lead us. That is far more dangerous, in my opinion, then any of these terrorists. It's been said that if one speaks up against this issue, that they're paranoid. Well, I could easily counter that those that don't speak up against it in the name of anti-terrorism would be just as paranoid... but about the terrorists. All I've been saying is work within the framework of our laws, and if you can't either try something else, or change the law. I'm not paranoid, just cautious, about both "big brother" (both corporate and governmental) and law breakers of all types (yes, including terrorists).
Originally Posted By Beaumandy yoda, do you think I want people spying on me??? Hell,. I am mr internet poker and am most likely breaking laws all over the place. LOL I am convinced the NSA program is in the scope of the law. The problem is that it has been leaked and now our enemy knows that every phone call they make is monitored. So now they will find other ways to communicate so they can plot to kill more non Muslims. Doesn't that little fact mean more than our government watching millions of call patterns?
Originally Posted By EdisYoda Beau, if you've been paying ANY attention to the news, and not just U.S. based news, by the time this was leaked, they were allready using other forms. One such way was a single email account, where no mail was ever sent... just kept as a draft, no way to trace unless you knew it was there. Several people would log into the account and read the one draft.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Does it make you nervous that your IP address is there for the taking and people can monitor everything you say and do on your computer? Our personal information is out there for everyone, not just the government. If I thought Bush was NOT doing everything to stop a terrorist attack I would dump him myself. But he is and I feel safer for this. I don't however like the fact that our national security secrets keep being leaked to the NY Times " for some reason ".
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <<<Well, let's see...the phone company knows who I call. I guess I'm not too worried if the government knows either.>> I think that is something people forget. It this day of massive databases containing information on everyone about darned near everything, there is no such thing as privacy any more. It may not be a good thing, but it is the way it is. < exactly, just using Google you can find out so much on people it is scary...so if the government wants to listen to me ordering my Kung Pao Shrimp...
Originally Posted By EdisYoda Frankly, the government needs to tighten up the privacy laws. Why do companies need to know that I personally buy Coca-Cola and Skippy peanut butter? They know that someone bought Coca-Cola and Skippy peanut butter, they don't need to know that I bought it. Just one example of many. It's early, and I need to start cooking Mother's Day breakfast or I would consider writing more on the subject.
Originally Posted By PsylocibeFrog all you can say is ok because you wont address the clear writing on the wall
