Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<So you stand by your sweeping generalization based on, what---a vacation in Texas?>> Actually, three visits to Texas. <<That gives you adequate information to state that Texas "presents itself" as somehow anti-gay?>> It's quickly apparent to any tourist that the unofficial (but universally embraced) motto of your state is "Don't Mess With Texas!". C'mon. Combined with the obvious macho presence there, the message is clear. I won't apologize for my perception -- which was based upon what Texans presented. In my mind, the Texas Visitors Bureau might just as well have posted billboards saying, "We don't want your kind." <<You can't sum up the attitude of an entire state's population based on having contact with such an infinitesimally small percentage of said citizens.>> As I said previously, I am not ascribing that mentality to the entire population of the state. But if even 5% of the state's population subscribes to the message that I see festooned around me as soon as I get off my plane, I think I have good reason to believe I could be in trouble.
Originally Posted By Pixie Glitter I think I'm not communicating something (maybe several somethings--lol) very well here. I'm not saying that all joking about groups is harmful or has malicious intent or that it offends me. But there were a number of statements in this thread that did not read like a friendly joke at all. Essentially there has seemed to be a fair amount of feeling, again, in this thread, that Texans are anti-American because they all want to secede. Inspector shared his feelings that Texans are anti-gay, or that somehow Texas is a hostile place to be if you're gay. These aren't fun little jokes about dialects or colloquialisms. They are serious aspersions on the character of everyone who lives in the state. Am I really the only one who sees those as two entirely different things? So to beat my dead horse, I have no issue with harmless jokes. I have huge issues with serious, unfair, negative generalizations about ANY group of people.
Originally Posted By Pixie Glitter Inspector, I can't begin to know what your experiences were in Texas. I can only take you at face value that you felt threatened. And that sucks. But for what it's worth, the slogan "Don't Mess With Texas" and cowboy hats are not synonymous with being anti-gay for myself or any Texan I know. Of course there are anti-gay Texans. There are, sadly, anti-gay people pretty much everywhere. It's awful that you felt threatened here, and those feelings are entirely valid. But please don't make broad assumptions about the entire state and its millions of residents based on a minority of bigots.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Your position that the GOP and Conservatives value the dollar above human life is... wait for it .... inappropriate, unacceptable, unseemly, reprehensible, unfitting, and wrong ... *deep breath* You know it, and I know it." Here's what I know. I think it is hypocritical of the faction of the GOP who are now bemoaning taxes to think nothing of sending your kid to war. Screw whether or not your kid enlists. My position five years ago was people didn't enlist to be sent to wars that were made out of trumped up circumstances like Iraq was. But hey, it's what they do for their country. Same thing with taxes. Our economy is in as much of not more trouble than our national security. If we're asked to pay more in taxes to help with the problem, then that's the sacrifice that has to be made. Except if you're that faction of the GOP that sent us to war and now acts as if the deficit that partly resulted from it was none of their fault.
Originally Posted By Chris in Atlanta >>>If we're asked to pay more in taxes to help with the problem, then that's the sacrifice that has to be made.<<< I absolutely agree 100%. I have said as much, and I will say it again right now. I officially go on record as saying that if me paying double in taxes will help us to get back on track economically, then I am ALL FOR IT! Absolutely and you know what? The vast majority of Conservatives feel the same way. The PROBLEM is that even if I do pay double, or triple, or whatever, is it REALLY going to MAKE JOBS, save ourselves, and create smart, responsible spending? The problem and the complaints are not that people just simply don't want to pay taxes. That's not it. The gripe is that money is being given out left and right and with all caution to the wind. It is hard to buy into spending and giving when you have Joe telling people that pay more of the bills then he himself pay, "you need to be patriotic, it's time to pay up" and then AIG gets built in bonuses. Now hold on...SPP Just hold on with the "why didn't you people say this when Bush was running up the tab?" I agree with THAT TOO!!! I WAS saying it, a lot of people were. But the perception of the economy wasn't what it was today, back then. That don't make it right, but that's the reality. There wasn't the urgency then that we have now. These Tea Parties are not about NOT wanting to pay taxes. It's about responsible spending. Most of the people simply disagree with the philosophy that we can buy our way out of this mess, that spending billions on GM and other companies to preserve labor union jobs, is prolonging the inevitable. I really don't know how I feel about that. I don't understand the complexities of how our markets really work. Truth be know, obviously few people did before now, or we would have the answer on how to fix it. So, don't get in my face and accuse ME of placing a higher value on dollars than human life. But it isn't as simple as you lay it out to be. Just because I go to a Tea Party and actually diagree with an Obama policy, does not mean that I am unpatriotic. Just because someone is against the war in Iraq, and said so, and said how they hate Bush when he was in, did NOT make THEM unpatriotic. If anything, voicing out opinions in this free society is what being American is all about. My father served. Most of my cousins served or are serving. Most of these men and women have seen war. War is bad for everyone, there are no real winners. Your view of how the collective Conservative mind thinks is skewed, probably not unlike how my view of the collective Liberal mind, is skewed. While there are certain undeniable things that we both understand about the "other side" there are also things we don't, that we THINK we do, and therein lies our reason for disagreement.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<Inspector shared his feelings that Texans are anti-gay, or that somehow Texas is a hostile place to be if you're gay.... They are serious aspersions on the character of everyone who lives in the state.>> No, Pixie, you're misrepresenting my posts. To say that Texas feels like a hostile environment to me is not the same as saying that I think that ALL Texans are anti-gay or dangerous. You're way intelligent enough to understand that distinction. An analogy... Here in Ann Arbor, I wouldn't leave my cell phone or my wallet on the countertop at my local neighborhood gay bar while I excuse myself for a minute-and-a-half to take a leak. I'd feel a sense of danger about that, and I'd err on the side of being cautious. Is that the same thing as saying that I think ALL gay men are thieves? Absolutely not. The truth is, my phone or wallet would probably be there, untouched, when I got back 99% of the time. If anyone had tried to take it, other gay patrons or bartenders would've intervened on my behalf. But you can never tell. So I err on the side of caution. When one lands at DFW, one is immediately bombarded with Texas macho messages. Is that a more unwelcoming "welcome" than I've received at any other place I've ever been to? Does it mean I feel a little uneasy? Does it make me get my guard up? Yup. Does it make me think that ALL Texans are homophobic and potentially dangerous? No, of course not. But, as with the case above, one errs on the side of caution.
Originally Posted By Chris in Atlanta Skewed, or a better word would be biased. Not wrong, just from a different perspective.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "So, don't get in my face and accuse ME of placing a higher value on dollars than human life. But it isn't as simple as you lay it out to be." I want to point out something. I made general post about war and taxes. YOU decided to insert yourself or take it personal, take your pick, and then proceeded to make these long posts assigning me dialog. THEN, even though all this happened in your mind, you tell me I'm in your face? WTF?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The thing that makes Texas rather unique (in my opinion) is the fact that it seems to PROMOTE a stereotype that folks from many other parts of the country find offensive. I'm not saying that all Texans are like that. It just seems very odd to me that so many Texans seem to promote that image.
Originally Posted By Chris in Atlanta >>>THEN, even though all this happened in your mind, you tell me I'm in your face? WTF?<<< I got caught up emotionally. I apologize. >>>then proceeded to make these long posts assigning me dialog<<< Yes you are right. Doing so is totally unacceptable. I'm sincere...I apologize.
Originally Posted By Chris in Atlanta Sending men and women to war is not something to be done without great caution. We have our hand in the bee hive now. Hopefully we can figure out the best way to get it out.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Well, no need to apologize, but reading your posts there was a little bizarre. Maybe you should settle on one name. That might bring some equanimity.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip He announced his name change many threads ago. If you can't keep up, take notes. ;-)
Originally Posted By Pixie Glitter <<<When one lands at DFW, one is immediately bombarded with Texas macho messages. Is that a more unwelcoming "welcome" than I've received at any other place I've ever been to? Does it mean I feel a little uneasy? Does it make me get my guard up? Yup.>>> Having been inside various terminals inside DFW airport countless times over the past 20+ years, I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Could you give some specific examples of being "immediately bombarded with Texas macho messages" in the airport? You mentioned the unofficial state logo earlier--"Don't Mess With Texas." Gotta say, I can't see how that slogan has anything to do with sexuality. Frankly I am at a complete loss as to what these "Texas macho messages" are that you immediately inferred were somehow anti-gay. I'm also puzzled by your wallet on the bar example. The sexuality of the patrons of the bar seems a moot point. . .it would be pretty foolish to leave one's wallet and cell phone unattended in any public place. I just don't see where you're going with that one. This is feeling more and more like a personal fight, and I don't get that. Your first post in this thread was very strong and negative about Texas and Texans. I stated that I don't think it's right to single out a group and make sweeping negative generalizations about them. You keep coming back and saying you don't think all Texans are anti-gay and yet still trying to prove that Texas is a hostile environment for gays. I think that is an untrue and unfair generalization. Maybe we just need to agree to disagree here.
Originally Posted By Chris in Atlanta Maybe you should settle on one name. That might bring some equanimity. I'm trying to get it down to one. I thought I would try on two today, two tomorrow, and then maybe two every day for the next month after that. This is it. I'm sticking with this one.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I think that is an untrue and unfair generalization.>> That is probably true. But what I find so bizarre is that it is a generalization that many Texans seem to promote. [mystified]
Originally Posted By Chris in Atlanta Sorry SPP, really. I think an apology IS good here. I'll tell you, I have two hot buttons and I know they are there, and I know I need to keep myself in check when they get pressed. First is someone accusing me of being unpatriotic. I think I am defensive on this, because I am one of the few of my extended family that chose college and no military. Some even chose college AND military. *sigh* So I've always lived with this feeling, though it is totally self imposed, that I need to compensate and defend my loyalty to my country. It's really stupid. Second, I always seem to take the "tax issue" so personal. I really don't know why. I need to figure that out, and fix it in my own head. It's really selfish if you think about it. So the problem was clearly with me, not you. Thanks for letting me off the hook so easily.
Originally Posted By Chris in Atlanta Texas is cool with me. Everything's BIG in Texas. Sorry Trippy you can't go there...now wait, you CAN! ;p
Originally Posted By Pixie Glitter So if I am understanding you, RoadTrip, you are saying that "many Texans seem to promote" the generalization that Texan is a hostile environment for gays? What are you basing that on? Having lived here for nearly half my life, with gay friends and neighbors, and traveled all over the state, I haven't gotten the same impression that you seem to have gotten.
Originally Posted By Pixie Glitter Oops. "The generalization that TexaS" not "Texan" is a hostile environment, etc.
