Originally Posted By Goofyernmost And there is one other huge reason and that would be work ethic. The current attitude with people beginning in any situation is that they must start at the top. They will not work for less than (specified amount) because they can be on welfare and not have to lift a finger. They can get food stamps and probably live better than someone that is working in a service job. Do I think Disney has been cutting back on what it spends on maintenance? I would guess that is true. Is there a problem with recruiting people to do it anyway? I believe that is true. No one wants to be the one to scrape up wads of gum spit out by a bunch of slobs. Who can blame them for that. No one wants to clean toilets or pick up garbage. Many people have a work ethic and will do it to support themselves without a handout. Many others do not. It must be a nightmare to find people to do this job. Ask yourselves...how happy would you be doing that job?
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA ^But there have always been people who work as a custodian -- cleaning up after slobs. Again, what's changed? Suddenly, there's a woke population of people who'd 'rather be on food stamps' because it's fun? Ever been on food stamps? I have. And trust me -- it's not fun and it's not easy. But I digress... Hasn't the population of the Orlando area grown along with the WDW property? Yes. SoCal has always been a hot spot for entry-level jobs. Used to be, college kids clamored for a job at Disneyland. It was the cool place to woek. Now, it's become sort of nerdy to work at Disneyland. And that's because more hotels and restaurants have opened in the area? Or because Disneyland's quality Cast Member experience has eroded?
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA ^But there have always been people who work as a custodian -- cleaning up after slobs. Again, what's changed? Suddenly, there's a woke population of people who'd 'rather be on food stamps' because it's fun? Ever been on food stamps? I have. And trust me -- it's not fun and it's not easy. But I digress... Hasn't the population of the Orlando area grown along with the WDW property? Yes. SoCal has always been a hot spot for entry-level jobs. Used to be, college kids clamored for a job at Disneyland. It was the cool place to woek. Now, it's become sort of nerdy to work at Disneyland. And that's because more hotels and restaurants have opened in the area? Or because Disneyland's quality Cast Member experience has eroded?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Smaller chain stores (these may not have appeared in your respective areas) such as W.T. Grants, Giant, Fishman's, Woolworths, Kmarts, Ames, Sears, J.C. Penney's and others killed the family run stores long before Walmart was even heard of in this area.< \ \not true in Chicagoland I can say - as the first WalMart just entered the market as they were kept out for that very reason -- Sears - K Mart , Penneys and a host of others long gone were not able to drive out the family businesses - that still thrive here -- but Wal Mart with it predatory pricing and placement will finish them off now. And all one has to do is just a little research into thje law suits the last 10 years for unpaid overtime - illegal aliens , etc and they would know -- Yes , they are worse than all the rest - they just have more money to settle suits so they don't give a rats behind
Originally Posted By vbdad55 it's the volume and the callousness with which they approach it -- all the while waving the American flag and painting it on all their trucks -- it's the 'up yours' attitude of bentonville that separates them from all other abusers -- IMHO.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 I'm not disagreeing with any of the preceeding, but isn't part of the problem that people are worse slobs than they were 20 years ago, or that there are more who are slobs today?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << SoCal has always been a hot spot for entry-level jobs. Used to be, college kids clamored for a job at Disneyland. It was the cool place to woek. Now, it's become sort of nerdy to work at Disneyland. >> It's not so much that it's a nerdy place to work, as much as kids aren't going to work in nearly the same numbers as years ago. The Wall Street Journal recently ran an article about this -- essentially teens and college students aren't applying for any jobs at all, no matter how cool or uncool they are. Apparently, easy credit for student loans keeps most college students from pursuing work to pay the bills -- they just put it off to the future by piling up debt. The same thing goes for the pre-college crowd. Mom & Dad support their lifestyle with home equity withdrawal for the sweet 16 automobile and spending money so that their kids don't have to go out and sweat it out at those minimum wage jobs. Of course, there are still a lot of kids working out there, but the numbers are significantly down from decades past.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA So let's see... Lower class people don't want to work. College kids who don't want to work. Increased openings of Starbucks, Cheesecake Factory, and In n Out Burger (which offer a similar, sometimes better work experience than a Disney theme park. Disney Parks poor maintenance, sub-par cast members, and gum on Main Street. And Disney's sort of the victim in all this. Am I following the logic here?
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Actually, Disney could very will be a victim in certain ways. They are caught in the continuing increase in people that do not care if they support themselves or someone else supports them. On the other hand, I suppose that they could fix it by generally paying more because people willing to work at low status jobs logically should be making more money than those that people willingly want to have. I guess they have chosen the path of "they will work for what I am willing to pay or they won't work at all". Unfortunately, it is not much of a threat because they would rather not work at all. I guess Disney has to rethink their pay policies. There goes another increase in ticket prices. Quite a dilemma this is, is it not?
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA ^Yeah, I'm getting all choked up just thinking about Disney's dilemma of staffing and retaining quality people to staff their parks. Maybe Disney execs could go to a Starbucks business seminar to find out how to do it.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy ^^ If you're willing to accept profit margins under 10%, the Starbucks business model probably works. They make very little money out of each individual store location, but count on the cumulative effect of growing thousands of stores to make up the difference. At some point though, the Ponzi scheme of growing the business doesn't quite add up and you'll see Starbucks looking at every reason to cut costs. Disney parks need about a 20% profit margin to generate the kind of cash flow that's required just to maintain reinvestment for new attractions. The Starbucks model doesn't quite work.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA ^^I'm simply talking about quality cast members that Starbucks seems to be able to attract. It seems to me that Starbucks has figured out that you can hire good people and retain them by treating them well, paying them a decent wage, and offering enough perks to make it worth their while.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy Starbucks has 100,000 employees spread across 50 states. WDW has to recruit 50,000 people from one county, and the way the property is set up, nobody really has a short commute to get to work on property. In contrast, there's virtually a Starbucks on every corner -- no hassles in getting to work there. As far as pay and benefits go, there's not much to aspire to behind the counter at Starbucks. The average store manager makes about $43K a year. That's about the median income in the U.S. -- but it's about the highest you can make without venturing out from behind the counter and doing something bigger for the company.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I know it sounds like I am defending Walmart and its practices. That is not true, I just get upset when all the blame is placed on one company when this blame is very wide spread. Walmart is no better or no worse than the rest of them, they are just bigger and an easier target. >> yes, they are ... but I just don't have the energy to debate them yet again here, so either do some research or believe what you choose ... we're being WalMarted as a nation anyway.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<What makes the WDW property different than 20 years ago? More properties and not enough staff to keep them clean?>> Of course. 20 years ago, WDW consisted of two theme parks, three resort hotels, one water park, one campground and a shopping village. That was it. They had great CMs across the board. Most of which were FULL-TIME ( except for the IPers at World Showcase). Now, thanks to Eisner's desire to build on every square inch of property (after all, land has no value unless you put something on it, right?) WDW is very much over-developed. At the same time, two things have happened: WDW's massive growth has led to massive growth beyond the borders and WDW has decided it wants to have 90% of its workforce be part-timers. It all translates to all the cutbacks in quality, the WalMarting, you see across property. I'd love for Phil Holmes to walk down the monorail ramp at the MK and down the entry walkways in front of the MK and look me in the eyes and say 'this has always been like this and is perfectly acceptable.' That won't happen because Disney LIES about its standards. They say they follow the same standards as they did 20 years ago, but they don't ...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<it's the volume and the callousness with which they approach it -- all the while waving the American flag and painting it on all their trucks -- it's the 'up yours' attitude of bentonville that separates them from all other abusers -- IMHO.>> Amen.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 If you think The Mouse treats its workers nicely, talk to one when they're not on stage (so long as they aren't a CPer basically on vacation or a retiree who doesn't really need the money but loves piloting a boat across the Seven Seas Lagoon). Disney believes free theme park tickets and hotel discounts (and how many $7 an hr folks can afford to stay at the Boardwalk even at 50% off in value season?) can make up for lack of pay ... it can't.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << It all translates to all the cutbacks in quality, the WalMarting, you see across property. >> Again, wrong comparison. I don't understand what at Wal-Mart represents "low quality." Wal-Mart sells virtually the same brands as every national retailer, but at a lower price. When I buy an 8-Pack of Coca-Cola at Wal-Mart, they charge me 30% less than the Kroger's on the corner. It was bottled by the same bottling plant and delivered by the same truck that brought it to Kroger's. It wasn't like someone manufactured a lower quality Coca-Cola just for Wal-Marts. I can make the same comparison across 100s of national brands. I get the same quality, but I pay less. You should study the Wal-Mart business model a little more closely to find out what it is really all about.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>yes, they are ... but I just don't have the energy to debate them yet again here, so either do some research or believe what you choose ... we're being WalMarted as a nation anyway.<<< I have researched Walmart and I am aware of the charges. I just think it is naive to think they are the only ones.
