Originally Posted By RoadTrip 97% of young Blacks are killed by other young Blacks. If people are that concerned about their children dying, why doesn't that generate the same outrage as police killings?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Because police are quite rightly held to a higher standard. Also, most white people are killed by other white people. Most hispanics are killed by other hispanics. It's not a big shock that most people are killed within their own communities. But the rates of cops shooting unarmed blacks as opposed to unarmed whites? That's an apple to an apple. And that's wholly out of proportion.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <If a police officer fears that his life is in danger you bet he can use lethal force.> In most cases, legally he can. (And we can argue all day if "feeling" in danger is a high enough standard.) But in many of those cases, he shouldn't. There's a difference between what one can do legally - especially in a criminal justice system that gives cops such leeway - and what one should do. ED had it just right in #39. <As far as toy guns go-realistic toy guns are not available to purchase at any toy store. I saw a picture of the toy gun in question and he did not purchase that at any toy store. This kid was told to put down what cops believed to be a weapon and he raised the weapon instead.> Are you talking about the 12 year old? Because he was shot within SECONDS of that police car swooping in. Are you talking about the guy in the Walmart? I've still never seen audio with that, and don't know if/how or how many times he was told to put it down - basically all we have is the cop's word. And as was pointed out in an earlier thread, white people in the SAME COUNTY as that Walmart had been walking in stores with actual assault weapons just to show they could, and no one even so much as called the cops. <Where are these parents that have failed to teach their children that life is not a video game. There are consequences for your actions both good and bad. You do not hit a police officer-EVER!> What you don't know is a lot. I know black parents. And every single one of them has "the talk" with their sons that white parents don't have to have with theirs. And "the talk" is that if a cop stops you, even if you've done nothing wrong, you don't get mad, you just say "yes sir" and "no sir" and be as polite and non-threatening as you possible can. Basically EVERY black parent has "the talk" with their sons and the fact that you didn't know that speaks volumes. Now, of course, black teenagers are... teenagers. And as parents of every color know, sometimes teenagers don't do what we tell them to, even if we've told them many times and in no uncertain terms. That doesn't mean they should have to die for it.
Originally Posted By charming husband What YOU don't know is a lot-in addition to being rude. I am sure if you try very hard you can post without being offensive. The 12 year old-too bad he had an altered bb gun with the orange safety cap removed and was caught on tape waving it around to other people before the cops showed up. This kid looked bored, looking for something to do. That gun looked like a semi=you can see the pictures on news sites. Once again where were the parents? You are NOT the only one who knows black parents. Sadly there are all colors of parents who are great and do have the talks=NOT just black parents have the talk=and there are CRUMMY parents of all colors who should never be parents and their children end up on the wrong side of the law.
Originally Posted By charming husband There have been over a 100 police officers this year alone who have died in the line of duty. If someone is so STUPID as to pull a weapon or to beat a cop=you bet they have a right to respond. Of course we could just let everyone police themselves but you saw the animals that burned and destroyed property and looted just for the fun of it on tv-so I don't think that self policing would work out.
Originally Posted By charming husband As long as parents are having a talk with their kids-maybe they ought to remind them that LOOTING is STEALING and IMHO any looters should be shot on site-no matter what color they are.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The percentage of white on white crime may be the same as black on black, but the numbers of young Black men killed by other young Black men is far higher than whites. As for the talk, my father had the talk with me 50 years ago. I know that was unusual for the time, but being a lawyer my father was very aware of how you had to act when stopped by a cop. Non-lethal force is certainly the proper option in some cases. But in this case the guy assaulted the cop, tried to take his gun and turned back and came after him after already having been shot. By any reasonable definition this was NOT an instance where a non-lethal option was called for.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Quite a few cities have regulations that require all city employees to live in the city. That might be a good approach to take in Ferguson.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "What YOU don't know is a lot-in addition to being rude. I am sure if you try very hard you can post without being offensive." I stand by what I said. Your attitude is exactly the problem, and the more you post the more you reveal it. "The 12 year old-too bad" I rest my case.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "But in this case the guy assaulted the cop, tried to take his gun and turned back and came after him after already having been shot. " According to the cop. Some of the witnesses said it was the cop who grabbed Brown from inside the car. "By any reasonable definition this was NOT an instance where a non-lethal option was called for." If the cop's story isn't true and some of the others are (and contrary to what McCulloch said, the physical evidence does not all point in the cop's direction) then yes it was.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Well, when the "witness" who initially claimed that Brown had his arms raised in surrender when he was shot later admits he saw no such thing, I will tend to take the word of the cop.
Originally Posted By charming husband ###"The twelve year old-too bad"### From your post and cutting my statement in half-you don't think it was too bad that he altered the gun. wow.
Originally Posted By fkurucz My BIL in the UK is a cop. He doesn't carry a gun and has never needed one. Why do American cops have to shoot so many unarmed people, even children, dead?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<My BIL in the UK is a cop. He doesn't carry a gun and has never needed one. Why do American cops have to shoot so many unarmed people, even children, dead?>> Perhaps you could tell me this. What percentage of households in the UK have guns? What percent of households in the US have guns? To even compare the two is ridiculous.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Don't get me wrong. I don't like guns; I've never owned one and never will. But the majority of people in the U.S. are armed, so the police have to be. A very low percentage of households in the UK have guns... under 7%. So the UK police don't have to be armed. There were 8,775 gun murders in the U.S. in 2010. There were 58 gun murders in the UK in 2010. You are going to have to do a lot better than that. Your question makes no sense whatsoever.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip It is NOT all about racism, and it gets real tiring to have people trot out that argument. << Black officers account for a little more than 10 percent of all fatal police shootings. Of those they kill, though, 78 percent were black. White officers, given their great numbers in so many of the country's police departments, are well represented in all categories of police killings. White officers killed 91 percent of the whites who died at the hands of police. And they were responsible for 68 percent of the people of color killed. Those people of color represented 46 percent of all those killed by white officers.>> Source: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white">http://www.propublica.org/arti...nd-white</a> Black officers who kill someone kill a higher percentage of Black people than white officers do. WHERE IS THE RACISM??? But whatever. Let's grab hold of the excuse, burn down a city and start our Black Friday shopping early.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Well, when the "witness" who initially claimed that Brown had his arms raised in surrender when he was shot later admits he saw no such thing, I will tend to take the word of the cop.> More than one witness said his hands were up. More than one said they were not. More than one said they were sort of out to the side. The place for such contradictions to be sorted out is supposed to be a trial, where cross-examinations are allowed, and a fully active defense and prosecution are each doing their jobs, not a grand jury hearing with a "prosecutor" effectively acting as defense attorney.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <From your post and cutting my statement in half-you don't think it was too bad that he altered the gun. wow.> The rest of your post was merely a justification for the taking of a 12 year old life. All of which said the taking of that life wasn't so bad. Indeed the sarcastic "too bad" said it all and that's why I could stop there. You obviously don't value that life in the slightest. So let's review - altering a toy gun: not something one should do, but compared to taking a kid's life? Not so bad indeed.
Originally Posted By charming husband You have convinced yourself that everything is due to race-that is racist. It is indeed too bad that kid chose to alter a bb gun to look like a semi. It is too bad that according to the footage he was alone for quite a while, acting bored, pointing waving an altered gun at people. This kid could have used "the talk". He contributed to his own situation. If you cannot have a conversation sans personal attacks-don't post-reading others thoughts obviously bothers you.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Not everything is racist. But plenty of things are. The kid was 12. The cops shot him within seconds of pulling up. No attempt to "talk him down." And they said he looked 20 years old, which he didn't, and which is itself an indication of how too many white people mythologize and inflate the threat of young black males in their minds. You'd fit right in in the comments sections about this incident, Ferguson, Trayvon Martin, Staten Island... the attitudes on display are kind of the national id about race on display, and it's instructive - but also disturbing. Your words speak for themselves. I didn't put them in your mouth (or your fingers). Yet out they came.
