Originally Posted By bobbelee9 Although I've never been to an opera, I admit to loving much of the music. My parents exposed me to all kinds of music, as a result, my cd collection is very varied. I need to get a better thesaurus, mine doesn't even list snob. Obviously the book isn't good enough for me. we need emoticons here.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Dave... I'm just not an absolutist kind of guy (usually). For a person with a generally liberal outlook you are surprisingly rigid in your adherence to absolutes... typically a conservative trait. Not a bad thing... just unusual.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<If it is who I think it is, I will just say I loved his work on the dentist office et al (arcades - genius)>> That would indeed be said Imagineer. He sent me a note on the topic. I am going to ask him if it's OK to post here. If not, I'll try and offer generalities. Been very busy, so I see the thread has had some legs and I am sure there's plenty that I will want to weight in on! So ... here we go ...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<The problem is that it is difficult to analyze the metrics. D/MGM undoubtedly allowed guests to spend longer on property as did DAK - but where is the ceiling? How much time can people realistically spend at WDW?>> Well, I've been saying that for years now (including here). In the USA, people (those who still actually have full-time stable jobs) generally don't get more than a week or two of vacation. And if anything it appears to be decreasing. While all those evil Socialist countries (the ones that place some value on workers) may get lots of time, they aren't always going to increase WDW stays. And even your fellow UKers who come to O-Town for 3-4 weeks at a shot are more often renting homes and townhomes, so they aren't captives of Mickey's Marketing Minions. There's been a fundamental (well, many but let's focus on one) flaw in WDW's business model that just seems to assume that guests will stay longer and longer. As wonderful as DAK is, I'm not sure that Iger and many execs might not wish it hadn't of been built. <<Typically a new attraction won't add substantially to the overall attendance figure for WDW - it just shifts the numbers around. Epcot rebounded with Test Track through the Millennium and did add some numbers to the overall total but it meant that the other parks (and even other activities were affected).>> I don't doubt that. EPCOT's numbers were like most in the past decade ... I don't disagree with that. But Burbank and TDO made that bed when they decided it was wise to open four gates and build 30,000 hotel rooms and timeshares ... when WDW achieves build out (or the equivalent) what exactly then? The answer is they don't know and they don't care ... because everyone from Bob Iger to Jay Rasulo to Al Weiss to Meg Crofton will be off spending their millions. There's no thought to the future, whether it's having 1991 and 2001 parades at the MK, having vast dead zones in parks, what to do when you close vast attractions like WoL, what to do about transportation/monorail expansion. You and I both know it. The reality is so long as they can get the stock at a certain level and the profits/revenue they want, they are happy. Ask Bob or Jay for a vision of WDW in 2011, 2015, 2020. You won't get it because they don't have it. BTW, apparently the fanbois over at MAGIC and Screamscape are disagreeing with your contention about MK's future. They seem all lathered up over Mermaid supposedly coming to MK ... scary. <<Management will point to concepts like Magic Your Way having the biggest impact on numbers over the past decade.>> It's all smoke and mirrors, but so long as it's helped prolong the Disney careers of very average execs ... repackaging ticket media isn't a driver of attendence, no matter how it is spun. <<Ultimately they will make the numbers work whatever way they want.>> I wish we had a BOLD FEATURE here ... preferably one with showtunes blaring because this is what some of us have said since the dying days (years) of Eisner's reign right into the present. Yeah, you got it. It's all about numbers ... of course if you torture numbers enough they'll say anything. (BTW, just saw that Family Guy episode where Peter and Stewie go to WDW and Michael Eisner gets fed to the crocs on the Jungle Cruise ... very funny stuff.)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<This is 1990s thinking all over again ... who is going to develop and build Shanghai?>> <<At this point Creative Development will still take the lead but I suspect you will have field imagineers who are consultants.>> Do they ever learn? <<They just isn't the resources any more - unless you count the ten zillion interns running around the place.>> I am sure that most of them are little hotties ... I mean, young men with pixie dust in their hearts and dreams of being the next Walt!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Being blunt Tony should have been shown the door a long time ago but it just isn't the WDI way. He is a poisonous influence within WDI who isn't working for the collective good. He is a tremendously talented individual but he is motivated solely by his own self-promotion.>> I won't debate the point (I do agree with much of it) ... but I will say that can be said of most of the big 'name' celeb Imagineers. Joe Rohde would be an exception. <<Successive ranks of management have tried to reform him but he refuses to change his ways. Instead he got given Disneyland in the restructuring to keep him quiet - and the fact that it is the smallest portfolio in the current 5YP by far. It is such a shame that he just can't work well with others. Tom is a far better collaborator - I think people tend to be critical as they don't view him as an imagineer as he comes from Show Writing at TPP but he is a smart guy who loves the product. He was a pretty decent manager when he ran WDI's creative efforts IMHO. He knew how to deal with Jay and WDP&R management - I just wish his successor had the same ability.>> I have seen that many people at WDI aren't good at playing with others. I don't want to bash Tom or Tony. I do think that neither has been utilized properly for years. From a creative standpoint, though, Tom will always have a tough time getting over/living down his TPP days ... he is viewed as the guy who would rather build a movie attraction than an immersive AA-type signature Disney ride ... And even though it was a team (and an incredible one at that) effort, Tony will always get the credit for building the most detailed, amazing MK of them all. <<Tom is responsible for the Disneyland Resort Paris portfolio now. He retained his EVP, Senior Creative Executive title in the reshuffle.>> So ... I know DSP has its expansion on the way, but is anything really coming to DLP? Or are they going to live off the 15th celebration that wouldn't end?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Or maybe it is the red necks, bible belters and the humidity that takes away from my enjoyment.>. Ah ... the true MAGIC of a WDW vacation! ;-)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Now I certainly don't believe all Europeans are that tacky. But not all U.S. Southerners are either.>> Paging Mr. MPierce to the thread ... MPierce ... please put down that possum and moonshine and check in!
Originally Posted By ChiMike I think both Tom and Tony should have been fired in the late 90s. Both were past their usefulness. But that's not how WDI worked. And today, their continued, current existance in Glendale; they both learned from the master of milking a paycheck, Marty "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WALT WOULD THINK, EVEN THOUGH I HAVE PUSHED THOUSANDS OF $80.00 COFFEETABLE BOOKS LAYING OUT HIS LEGACY, SO DON'T YOU DARE POINT OUT OUR FLAWS" Sklar.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Disneyland is a better portfolio than Disneyland Resort Paris now? One ageing park is better than two parks, Disney Village, six hotels and one campground? No imagineer would agree to that.>> On the face, that sounds reasonable. But Tony loves DL, lives nearby and is approaching retirement/push him out on his arse age ... I don't know what he wants or what his health might be. On the other hand, I'd love to see him riding herd over DLP. It was his baby. And since Tom and he often clashed (to put things mildly), I would have to guess that it stings on some level to see Tom in that position. <<There is a reason why Tony was given DL - there is virtually no investment going into that park any time soon.>> So that makes it like every USA park, except for DCA ... and every foreign park that Disney actually owns except apparently for DSP. <<It is easier to let him play around with "fanboi" favorites like Great Moments.... and the Sleeping Beauty Castle Walk-through - minor rehabs of attractions that should never have closed on limited budgets. DL isn't getting anything beyond a C until well after Tony is pushed off into retirement. He can dream all he likes but unless he can convince management to put it on the 5 Year Plan he doesn't have a chance. DL has nothing but Blue Sky concepts right now - years away from anything. It is a political game.>> That's a shame. A big one. DL can get by a bit more than say MK can because of all the activity at DCA and things like the new summer pyro and assorted entertainment. But at some point (sooner than later) DL NEEDS 2-3 new attractions. Tomorrowland, which I know is what he'd like to have fixed, is still a huge mess ... new paint job doesn't change things. <<Tony can't lose - he gets all the credit for IJA - when it was a phenomenal team effort - and none of the flak for the Tomorrowland '98 debacle which he led. Or Pooh. Those are completely excusable because he didn't have the budget. No other show producer gets the same pass.>> I don't know whether Tony should get a pass for those, especially when I've heard horror stories of how WDI bled through funds on T'98 ... but the budget ax just destroyed the 'Montanta' concept that should have happened ... and Rocket Rods was a disaster from the start (bad concept on old track that couldn't handle it with money constantly dropped and then a sponsor deciding it didn't want any part of it) ... and Pooh? ... C'mon. That was an attraction that never should have happened at DL. The park would have been better off keeping CBJ (even running seasonally) than gutting that facility for a 1970-era dark ride that no one wants a part of. Tony (and Bruce) never should have taken any heat for that disaster. They were told 'we're ripping out the CBJ, we want a Pooh ride like MK and here's $30 million, make it happen.' <<He also happily takes credit for Star Tours when the it was also a team effort - particularly from the TPP folks like Tom Fitzgerald.>> That much is certainly true. Tony is a whore for publicity and credit. <<Tony is only interested in his own legacy - hence why he persisted with his designs to make DCA the "free entrance" to DL and switch the entry to the south side of the resort. He felt he was the only one who could possibly "fix" DCA even though it wasn't his responsibility.>> Just a wild question, though. Do you think if Tony had been leading the design team on DCA that we would be getting an Extreme Makeover now? Do you think Tony knows what truly makes a Disney theme park special? <<There is a reason why he is the only portfolio leader to have just ONE park. There was no way they were going to give him $1.3bn to play with on DCA. No-one would have wanted to work with him. Bob Weis is a collaborator.>> Don't really disagree ... but just feel the need to point out Disney did throw Bob under the bus over Disney's America. I was shocked when I heard he was coming back to Disney (although I think he is very talented) and I have since heard other personal reasons may have been at play. <<The great disappointment to me is that he is a great show producer - not a great storyteller as plot is his weakness (which is why the TDL team decided not to replicate the DL version of Splash). He just can't keep his hands out of other imagineer's cookie jars.>> I am not a lathered up fanboi when it comes to Tony (as you know) ... but I do think the guy's record speaks volumes. He's had far more hits and phenomenal ones than misses ... and misses like the two you listed above can be easily explained if not excused. <<Tom's output is equally prolific but from a film perspective. All of the 3D movies post-EO are Tom's work as producer and he also conceived and produced arguably the best movie to ever be shown inside a theme park, period - CineMagique at WDSP.>> That is an amazing attraction, no doubt. And it's great that it will stay there unique as no one in the USA will ever take the attraction since it is a great homage to film and not DISNEY MAGIC. But I think many fans/guests/cast are tired of film-based attractions. Film, no matter how good, isn't the same as a ride experience or even a mixed one like an American Adventure. Many of the films at Disney parks are also way past their use-by dates ... and unfairly Tom has often been blamed. There is no justification in 2009 for Honey, I Shrunk the Audience to be playing in ANY Disney park. And as much as I love the Muppets, I'd say the same for MuppetVision at this point. They can't go on forever. <<He just doesn't create attractions. He is portrayed as the villain of the piece to the outside fan community - blamed for every underachieving attraction even when he has no involvement. Blamed for parks like WDSP and HKDL when he inherited those from Marty and had no wiggle room with the budget.>> Now DSP and HKDL are Marty's fault? I have never blamed Tom or anyone at WDI for them? I blamed Michael Eisner, Bob Iger, Paul Pressler and Jay Rasulo. On projects like that you can't put the blame on Imagineering. I won't blame Barry Braverman for DCA either, even if I think he shouldn't have ever been heading that project. When you build the kind of messes Disney has been dropping around the globe (Tokyo excepted) in the past decade the blame goes to the top officials of the company. They tried to put one over on folks over and over again ...and it has yet to work ... and it never will. <<I have no idea why many in the fanboy class have problems with either Tom or Eric Jacobson when both have had as much success as any other imagineer. Tom was not in charge of WDI for Tiki Room: Under New Management. He was in his TPP role at that time. Marty approved that attraction. This attraction and others like Stitch's Great Escape! demonstrate that even the best imagineers aren't flawless. Kevin Rafferty wrote both - and he is one of the best show writers to ever work at WDI. He also conceived PhilharMagic, it's tough to be a bug! and Toy Story Midway Mania. No-one's copybook is entirely blot-free.>> True enough ... but at some point the question becomes who would you want to create a park and/or attractions for one. If I were going to build a 21st century MK in Shanghai, I have some definite ideas as to who I'd want on my team and leading it.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>and Pooh? ... C'mon. That was an attraction that never should have happened at DL. << FYI Lee is putting to much responsibility of the mess of Pooh on Tony's shoulders. If anyone was at fault it was the late Bruce Gordon; but some feel even pointing things like that out is speaking ill of those who have passed. Pooh was a screw-up for an assortment of reasons. Some of which were: WDI was still putting WAY too much emphasize on the ride conveyance du jour. The cost and design of the ride vehicles were over the top for such a ride. If anything they removed the rider farther from the sets/experience, and made the whole attraction cold. There was too much money sent on repurposing the facility rather than on the new attraction itself. And than of course the standard issues of circa 2002 too much emphasize placed on merchandise, an attitude that the guests will buy cardboard if Disney is stamped on it, etc. etc.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<My first trip to WDW was in 1991, which I believe still qualifies as the "glory days", though at the end.>> In my Spirited opinion, the WDW glory days were from 1974-1994. ... By the never-ending, no substance, Test Track opening debacle, pepto-pink castle 25th anniversary it became clear to me that with some exception (DAK being the only really huge one) that WDW was trending downward in most of the important aspects of what makes a Disney trip magical (none of it being DISNEY MAGIC!!!) <<I remember the parks being cleaner, I remember the merchandise being more differentiated, and I remember much of what you and the Spirit talk about. >> So you truly remember the magic! <<Our difference is that I saw that as frosting on the cake, not the soul of the park. Some of the frosting is gone, but the cake (soul) is still there.>> Very interesting analogy. I can see why some might feel that way. I guess it's like looking at the crust on a pizza as not being as important as the toppings ... to me, those little Disney details (as well as the quality of show, cast, merchandise, entertainment etc) are the foundation. That's why HKDL gets such praise from me. <<I am satisfied with how things are now (not thrilled; satisfied) because I feel things added since 1991 offset the steps backward the MK has taken. To me Splash Mountain, the Tower of Terror, Rock and Roller Coaster, Test Track, Mission Space, Soarin' and the ENTIRE Animal Kingdom make my 2009 WDW experience better than my 1991 WDW experience.>> Fair enough, although I'd point out that Splash opened in 1992, ToT in 1994 and even DAK was largely conceived of and planned during that period. RnRC, TT, MS and Soarin are all OK attractions ... but none scream 'can't miss' ... and the first two are largely forgettable for me (even though I know I am in the minority). <<I know you may disagree, but I don't know that your opinion is any more valid or "correct" than mine is. I also grant that my opinion is no more valid or "correct" than yours.>> I never said it was. Now I may question your tastes ...
Originally Posted By ChiMike As far as Tom, I understand Lee's need to protect his Napa Rose buddy, but Tom is still stinking up the place, now with the new SSE script. Tom was Great at what Tom was realistically NEEDED for. The new SSE narration comes off soo bad that it makes one think that his heart wasn't even in it this go-around. As Tony has his own professional limitations/weaknesses; ones that Lee has generously filled us all in on... Tom was never really suited for anything but cheesy writing.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 And isn't Pooh a great example of the problems with the MK and Disney in general? They have the capability of building a superior version of the Pooh attraction and did so when someone else footed the bill in Tokyo but Orlando got the cheap version. Someone...anyone in a position of authority should have said "We are Disney and the MK deserves the best version of Pooh we can build." And considering Pooh has been one of the few new attractions at the MK this past decade they really should have bit the bullet and do it right.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>In my Spirited opinion, the WDW glory days were from 1974-1994. ...<< Earlier you said 1996, and upon reading that I felt you were a little off. I am glad to see you type this. A number of big things occurred in 1994 that would lead me to believe this was the year that there was a fundamental shift and breakdown in not only Orlando but in Glendale, Anaheim, and Burbank. Indy and ToT were wrapping up and basically the last great products of WDI. I know, I know, AK. As someone who, again, championed that park when it was EXTREMELY unpopular to do so, I recognize it as the exception to setting the date at 1994. However, in execution it was considered a failure the first handful of years. The Disney of pre-94 would have never opened it as it was.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Hi all!>> Mike's back!!! <<Couldn't resist jumping into this therapy session. As one of the original "canary in the coal mine" posters from a dozen years ago it chokes me up to see a pal like Lee now speak of brand degradation.>> Shocking turn ain't it? I wonder if he needs help fine-tuning that CV? ;-) <<Spirit, loved your MK analysis and hope for more.>> Thanks. And since I just found my 1975 guidebook from either my second or third visit, I may be adding some. Right now, I'm trying to catch up and not miss anything (like your return!) <<You really summed up the big complaints from the last decade. Main Street guest offerings, trees, brick planters in plaza, custodial, castle corridor, etc.>> Main Street was on the mind of the ex-Imagineer whose brain I picked about this subject ... remember when it wasn't an outlet mall? <<The one thing that you only briefly mentioned that I believe plays an enormous role in the effect described on this thread (MK losing its soul), is what FP has done to the castle parks. It is my belief that FP has fundamentally changed the way the 'average guest' experiences a castle park, with MK suffering most drastically. FP now has folks rushing between each land, each chapter so to speak, back and forth all day playing the FP game and meanwhile a lot becomes lost in translation. DL and MK were designed to have folks experience the lands one at a time. FP destroys that intended design and rather puts the importance of a guests' experience on gaming the marquee attractions, with little regard to the cohesive show originally attended by the real imagineers of the past. I think this change in the way lands are visited plays a huge part on the vibe of the MK. IMO, MK is affected in this regard far more than DL due to a dozen unique factors including attraction density, dissimilar FP offerings, resort culture, etc. In addition to the points you raise Spirit, I do believe this plays a significant role in emptiness of the park experience.>> Excellent point and like and agree with the way you describe it. And not just kissing up since I hope you stick around a bit. No doubt when you have people on Big Thunder rushing across the park because their FP window on Buzz just can up and then heading to Pan to get a new one and then heading to JC standby ... yeah, it's like reading a book or seeing a play in jumbled order. Sure, even before FP some folks ran to all the E-Tix ... but there's no doubt that FP has made a huge difference in that department. Just another reason why I don't like it.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 One of the amazing things about Imagineering to me is that some of the people who have moved up or into prime positions have, what I consider, spotty resumes that would have made me think twice about them being moved up. A good example was Barry Braverman. A couple of ok attractions (including the Robin Williams/Animation tour) and some real stinkers (Food Rots...I mean Rocks). Then he gets put in charge of the DCA project. When a friend told me he was in charge I said "Really???" He would have never been my choice to lead that project. A nice guy but in way over his head.
Originally Posted By ChiMike My thoughts exactly sjhym! That's what I tried to allude to in my post about Toad. At the time POOH was IT. He was the clean-up hitter in the franchise lineup. MK was the Flagship park without question. It's a no-brainer that Hunny Hunt should have been installed. In 1998, before the hindsight of 2009, it was a clear no-brainer that you add to MK not take away.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<...and btw, Spirit, in my book, the removal of Toad was the 2nd biggest attraction removal screw-up in the history of WDW. With of course JII being #1.>> Interesting. I have friends that would agree with you. I don't. I think 20,000 Leagues was No. 1, not because it was a great attraction, but because it was unique, told a story in a way only Disney could and added beauty, water and kinetics to the park. Now, what do you have ... a playground that any McD's can beat, a pin cart and a DVC whoring booth. No. 2 would be Horizons because it was the soul of FW at EC and when they took it the whole 1980s notion of EPCOT was diminished forever. No. 3 would be Journey ... somewhere after that would come Toad. <<The CBJ removal at DL while completely odd in its own right, had far less an impact than Toad's respectively, imo. In all rights, Hunny Hunt should have been added to any of the 20K/toontown areas>> Impact? Agreed. But CBJ was never as popular in Anaheim as it O-Town where redneck music is bigger than it is in the media capital of the globe. ... but killing it (two huge well-themed theaters full of AAs) and putting in the cheapest version of Pooh (one that is so bad ...) was just stupid on sooooo many levels. Toad hurt more for what it represented than for the actual attraction swap ... Toad in O-Town was still the 1971 version and Pooh was a small upgrade in terms of effects etc ... I prefer Toad because it's more trippy (no, not you DVC King of Minnesota).
