Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I am not disagreeing with you nor, am I saying it's ok to be less clean. But I wonder how much of that is the fault of the "guests" IMHO people have become filthly slobs over the years. Now is this because they put in the cheaper hotels? I'm not saying that meant we got in trashier people, but that the same people who'd been coming for years suddenly became trashier because it wasn't costing as much?>> While I'd like to say people are trashier today ... and dumber too (and I think that's likely true to some degree), I think that again misses the key point: it is TDO's job to keep the parks as close to pristine as possible no matter HOW people act. Custodial has been cut back for years. This is a fact. Remember why Walt ordained no gum would be sold at DL? Remember when you'd never see any on the pavement? That's not because 20 years ago no pig spit out gum where they stood. It's because Disney had people whose job it was to get down on the ground with putty knifes and scrape the crap away. Well, TDO decided years ago that this was too costly (because I am sure those folks doing the dirty work were averaging $20 an hour with full benefits -- this is sarcasm in case anyone wondered!) ... so now, you have splotches all over the place ... MK entrance area and around monorail station seem to be worst. Is more gum being spit out? (and am I typing this on a Friday night?!??! yeah, it's been a long week ... I'll go out tomorrow after 10-11 hours of sleep!) Sure, that's reasonable. But it's also reasonable and Walt-like to assume that if people see that there is gum all over they're more likely to add to it whether it's on EPCOT pavement or on Splash Mountain walls. People don't even realize this stuff. The windows on Main Street used to be intricately designed. Now, most have piles of tees, mugs and plush with pin lanyards. Why the difference? Is is because of WalMart guests? Maybe. But what you may not know is that for decades WDW had dedicated designers whose job was to make elaborate, beautiful window displays. What happened? Disney decided to do away with them and let the retail folks handle them. So you get stacks of magical WDW 2009 logo tees and generic princess merchandise. Who notices, right? <<Case in point, I work at a church that has a private school, grades pre-kindergarten to 8. The students wear uniforms, they are very well behaved. On the days when they have "out of dress code" the kids are less well behaved. The uniform makes a difference, and I wonder if the price people pay on their vacations also makes a difference.>> I wonder if guests would feel they were in more of an upscale resort if managers were again referred to as 'suits' because that's what they wore when onstage instead of Gap mall-wear with pin lanyards, company IDs, cell phones and Blackberries hanging ... yeah, I wonder ...
Originally Posted By CarolinaDisneyDad >>>The reality is that there are many companies that can build Disney type attractions and do it well. I would say Univeral and Sea World have experiences that are as good and as immersive as Disney. It has always been the extras that made Disney special. Disney needs to stop looking like its competitors and look a lot more like Disney.<<< Well said. If we wanted a universal we would just go there. Disney must remember the things that set them apart.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I have no problem with "elitist snobs" if they have actually approached a station in life where they deserve to be that. Queen of England... I have no problem with her being an elitist snob. Unfortunately, I have the disquieting feeling that many of the "elitist snobs" on LP are one paycheck away from being a Wal-Mart lowlife.>> I'd live on the streets (by the way, here in Miami our local media is saying homeless panhandlers make $500-750 a day! ... YES, a DAY!!! So, I'm thinking that's not a bad career move ...) before I'd ever shop at WalMart. The company is evil. I am not helping Sam's daughter kill the American worker because she's only worth $20 billion dollars (let's leave out the other siblings) so the company can't give health insurance to its workers or pay a living wage.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Class has absolutely nothing to do with money, it is all in the ethos. I have been wealthy and I have been poor. But I have always been me with uncompromised standards.>> Wise words to live by. Very, very true ...
Originally Posted By CarolinaDisneyDad It is my belief that FP has fundamentally changed the way the 'average guest' experiences a castle park, with MK suffering most drastically. FP now has folks rushing between each land, each chapter so to speak, back and forth all day playing the FP game and meanwhile a lot becomes lost in translation. DL and MK were designed to have folks experience the lands one at a time. FP destroys that intended design and rather puts the importance of a guests' experience on gaming the marquee attractions, with little regard to the cohesive show originally attended by the real imagineers of the past. <<<<I think this change in the way lands are visited plays a huge part on the vibe of the MK. IMO, MK is affected in this regard far more than DL due to a dozen unique factors including attraction density, dissimilar FP offerings, resort culture, etc. >>>> <<<<No doubt when you have people on Big Thunder rushing across the park because their FP window on Buzz just can up and then heading to Pan to get a new one and then heading to JC standby ... yeah, it's like reading a book or seeing a play in jumbled order. Sure, even before FP some folks ran to all the E-Tix ... but there's no doubt that FP has made a huge difference in that department. Just another reason why I don't like it.>>>> FP may have changed our touring initially, but it doesn't now. FPs are honored for the rest of the day so there is no reason to rush around. For us FP allows us to tour at a more relaxed pace knowing that we will still be able to ride our favorites later. I feel we are able to see and do alot more because we spend less time in ques. I know it isn't a popular position but I like FP. We arrive at open and ride most of our rides before 11am then we tour the other aspects of the parks using FP to ride a couple other rides during the later more crowded times of the day.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Right now, I'm trying to catch up and not miss anything (like your return!)<< Great to be chatting with you again. As always, I've been a constant lurker. Would like to mention a few things, please email when you have a sec. chimike64 -at- yahoo -dot- com. >>Main Street was on the mind of the ex-Imagineer whose brain I picked about this subject ... remember when it wasn't an outlet mall?<< Yes. I really miss the quality dining and setting afforded one by visiting the Crystal Palace. Lately I've been really jonesing for old school MK Fantasyland, lagoon area, lanscaping, trees, a very ornate, romantic courtyard behind castle, skyway, laughter coming out of hell. >>No doubt when you have people on Big Thunder rushing across the park because their FP window on Buzz just can up and then heading to Pan to get a new one and then heading to JC standby ... yeah, it's like reading a book or seeing a play in jumbled order.<< Not only that but it relegates the Plaza's role to nothing more than a stadium.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>FP may have changed our touring initially, but it doesn't now. FPs are honored for the rest of the day so there is no reason to rush around. For us FP allows us to tour at a more relaxed pace knowing that we will still be able to ride our favorites later. I feel we are able to see and do alot more because we spend less time in ques. I know it isn't a popular position but I like FP. We arrive at open and ride most of our rides before 11am then we tour the other aspects of the parks using FP to ride a couple other rides during the later more crowded times of the day.<< Your like for FP is based on breaking the set rules put in place for the FP system. It is not good for Disney to actively offer something that earns it 'enjoyable' status only by guests abusing the original set parameters. Regardless on whether Disney and its CMs look the other way to avoid the dreadful act of actually telling their guests "no". It's also not "fair" (<---- See that word VBDAD) that hundreds of "in the know" folks abuse the consideration put in place by Disney that some folks might have been hung up, while many other guests just have to wait in longer lines (FP & Standby) to accomodate the unregulated return of FPs the system considers expired.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<FYI Lee is putting to much responsibility of the mess of Pooh on Tony's shoulders. If anyone was at fault it was the late Bruce Gordon; but some feel even pointing things like that out is speaking ill of those who have passed.>> No, I agree. Pooh was Bruce's mess, but I always got the feeling it was designed that way ... from both Tony and WDI powers ... they already knew with DCA that they weren't greenlighting the right projects and/or paying for them. I remember having a preview breakfast in Critter Country and spoke with Bruce. I got the distinct feeling he got what the situation was. I know Bruce and Tony were close before his passing, so apparently Bruce didn't blame Tony for being thrown under the bus -- or if he did, he forgave him. <<Pooh was a screw-up for an assortment of reasons. Some of which were: WDI was still putting WAY too much emphasize on the ride conveyance du jour. The cost and design of the ride vehicles were over the top for such a ride. If anything they removed the rider farther from the sets/experience, and made the whole attraction cold. There was too much money sent on repurposing the facility rather than on the new attraction itself.>> Yep. Most of the money on DL's Pooh went into ripping out the old attraction, dealing with the now un-needed basement ... it was like the attraction was an unimportant after-thought! <<And than of course the standard issues of circa 2002 too much emphasize placed on merchandise, an attitude that the guests will buy cardboard if Disney is stamped on it, etc. etc.>> That hasn't changed ... but a certain CM pal tells me the outlets in Florida are likely to drop pins to $1.99 a piece (almost what they're worth!) I am budgeting $100 for merchandise when I go to WDW. The least I have ever in the past ... and that will likely be spent at Property Control or Company D if there's something very inexpensive. Disney has saved me thousands of dollars by WalMarting their merchandise, so thanks Mickey!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<And isn't Pooh a great example of the problems with the MK and Disney in general? They have the capability of building a superior version of the Pooh attraction and did so when someone else footed the bill in Tokyo but Orlando got the cheap version. Someone...anyone in a position of authority should have said "We are Disney and the MK deserves the best version of Pooh we can build." And considering Pooh has been one of the few new attractions at the MK this past decade they really should have bit the bullet and do it right.>> Why? They don't care about putting in the best. Look, DCA got a 'C-ticket' Monsters dark ride. MK got the I don't even want to give it a ticket level MILF tragedy. And TDL has an E-Ticket level, interactive dark ride that no one else has (even in wrongly placed Tomorrowland). Now, they won't even pay for a clone of Mermaid for MK. They truly have no clue how to run their business at all. Disney's P&R execs are akin to Bernie Madoff just wondering how long they can play the smoke and mirrors game.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Indy and ToT were wrapping up and basically the last great products of WDI. I know, I know, AK. As someone who, again, championed that park when it was EXTREMELY unpopular to do so, I recognize it as the exception to setting the date at 1994. However, in execution it was considered a failure the first handful of years. The Disney of pre-94 would have never opened it as it was.>> I am shocked at how great DAK is. By all accounts, it shouldn't have been. I give all the credit to Joe and his team. That park even survived lopping off BK, which should have been there in 1998 or maybe a year or two later. But excepting DAK, the last great attraction Disney opened in Florida was ToT ... and that was 1994. There have been a few good ones like Soarin ... and lousy ones that are popular like Test Track ... but no greats.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<My thoughts exactly sjhym! That's what I tried to allude to in my post about Toad. At the time POOH was IT. He was the clean-up hitter in the franchise lineup. MK was the Flagship park without question. It's a no-brainer that Hunny Hunt should have been installed. In 1998, before the hindsight of 2009, it was a clear no-brainer that you add to MK not take away.>> Oops. Now I GET the point! Yeah, based on that ... I agree 100%!
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Interesting. I have friends that would agree with you. I don't. I think 20,000 Leagues was No. 1, not because it was a great attraction, but because it was unique, told a story in a way only Disney could and added beauty, water and kinetics to the park. Now, what do you have ... a playground that any McD's can beat, a pin cart and a DVC whoring booth. No. 2 would be Horizons because it was the soul of FW at EC and when they took it the whole 1980s notion of EPCOT was diminished forever. No. 3 would be Journey ... somewhere after that would come Toad.<< Hmm. How do I explain this in writing... I agree with you on your 20K points including the WDI "If it's good enough for Six Flags" treatment in 2004-2005. I'm now convinced that scally wag Baxter must have thrown that in the powerpoint at the last minute. The two biggest losses with 20K was first and foremost the -active- lagoon area, and then second, the subs themselves. While the show was outdated, the subs and thus the setting were timeless. I remember joking along with all of you on how miserably rotten the timing of the recollection was when at the same time they were designing DL's lagoon rebirth on one of the hottest character properties. And our (MK) lagoon was based in Fantasyland no less! Anyways, I hope to see Mermaid help redeem some of the sins of the past. -- Personally, the two attractions I miss the most are Horizons and World of Motion. With World of Motion probably being my #1. It simply needed a complete overhaul of its third act. And then a rework of its overall context in relation to the upcoming turn of the century and its own place in Epcot. Horizons was the grand-daddy of them all. Can't say much that hasn't already been said. I do think Horizons is missed more than WoM, not just due to the merits of their respective shows, but based on what replaced them. Test Track was immediately, immensely popular while M:S is the biggest big-budget disaster to come out of WDI with the exception of DCA and WDSP. Pretty sad that its only rivals for such a distinction are actual wholly-realized parks. So, I do think that plays into folks' slant towards missing Horizons more. Can't blame 'em either. But yes, I probably miss Horizons and WoM more than JII and Toad. Now this is where I say, BUT...... I do believe that JII and Toad where far MORE relevant to the WDW audience when they were removed. I believe they were still timeless attractions. As mentioned now like its age-ol-wisdom, JII of course needed a serious tech and cosmetic upgrade, but thats it. I stated my #1 and #2 as JII and Toad because of that word "impact" Both WERE still popular. Both WERE still loved not just by Fanboys but by the 'average guest'. Both facilities weren't really needed for the next greatest thing, unlike Horizons and WoM. So, outside of my personal rankings, I do believe JII and Toad were the two biggest screw-ups when it came to ride removal. Those two folks at the mouse house wish they had back, with JII being #1. Both removals were simply unnecessary.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>But excepting DAK, the last great attraction Disney opened in Florida was ToT ... and that was 1994<< And that's the thing. That's the facts. AK is the lone exception. Otherwise in my minds when Indy and and ToT wrapped up WDI went to pot. Even after all the cycles of gutting in the last 15 years, today, WDI still needs a serious housecleaning. A lot of good people get shown the door and some of the worst of the worst hang on to continue Spreading their Magic.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Great to be chatting with you again. As always, I've been a constant lurker. Would like to mention a few things, please email when you have a sec. chimike64 -at- yahoo -dot- com.>> Email sent ... and I like it better when you contribute. Less obvious things for me to write 896 word posts about!
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Oops. Now I GET the point! Yeah, based on that ... I agree 100%!<< No worries, I posted the other post prior to this - - not trying to beat a dead horse. Hope I explained my reasoning clearly. You'll have to excuse me I'm a little rusty putting my thoughts into keystrokes.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Sorry guys.. ...miserably rotten the timing of the >>>reclamation<<< was when at the same time...
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I have some problems with Toad and JII being the biggest mistakes for attractions that were replaced. I personally loved Toad, but it was nowhere near as popular as Pooh is today. You could always ride Toad with a 20 minutes wait or less. It is not unusual to wait 60+ minutes for Pooh. And that is in JANUARY! JII had a very popular character but the attraction was drawing relatively few people when it was closed. The mistake was not in re-working the attraction. It needed that. The mistake was reworking it poorly and without the purple whazzit. Horizons absolutely had to be the biggest loss. As has been said, it really embodied the spirit of the original Epcot. Horizons was my favorite Epcot attraction. On the other hand, no one was riding it at the end. On my final Horizons ride I saw NO ONE ELSE IN THE QUEUE until I was in the load area. They were putting people in every 3rd or 4th car. It was really sad, As for BK never making it to the AK… THANK GOD FOR THAT! It would have really trashed the character of the park. At least Dinoland is small enough it can be ignored. I thought it initially worked when they really played up the tongue-in-cheek aspects of Dinoland. They seemed to abandon that early on and now it has no real reason for being other than to sell McDonalds burgers. We stopped going there completely when they shut down Tarzan.
Originally Posted By ChiMike CarolinaDisneyDad.. Reading my response to you on FP bugged me. It wasn't my intention to direct it at YOU if that was your interpretation. Simply speaking towards the large-scale abuse present today. The best solution in my eyes, and a lot of qualified experts eyes, is to get rid of the whole thing and go back to the tried and true system of having everybody fairly wait their turn.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Your like for FP is based on breaking the set rules put in place for the FP system. It is not good for Disney to actively offer something that earns it 'enjoyable' status only by guests abusing the original set parameters. Regardless on whether Disney and its CMs look the other way to avoid the dreadful act of actually telling their guests "no". It's also not "fair" (<---- See that word VBDAD) that hundreds of "in the know" folks abuse the consideration put in place by Disney that some folks might have been hung up, while many other guests just have to wait in longer lines (FP & Standby) to accomodate the unregulated return of FPs the system considers expired.>> Yeah. This was always TDLFAN's beef with it and I agree (although I'll admit to being an abuser too!) Only TDR actually enforces the time return so if your window of return is say 4:20-5:20 you can't show up at 9:16 and get on ... at WDW (and DL) this is done all the time. So as bad as FP may be, it isn't even allowed to operate effectively. All the late admits throws the system out of whack.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<The two biggest losses with 20K was first and foremost the -active- lagoon area, and then second, the subs themselves. While the show was outdated, the subs and thus the setting were timeless. I remember joking along with all of you on how miserably rotten the timing of the recollection was when at the same time they were designing DL's lagoon rebirth on one of the hottest character properties. And our (MK) lagoon was based in Fantasyland no less! Anyways, I hope to see Mermaid help redeem some of the sins of the past.>> Except Lee has said -- and I don't doubt him one bit -- that Mermaid isn't in the plans thru 2014. By then MK will be so stale I truly wonder if I'll even visit regularly. -- <<Personally, the two attractions I miss the most are Horizons and World of Motion. With World of Motion probably being my #1. It simply needed a complete overhaul of its third act. And then a rework of its overall context in relation to the upcoming turn of the century and its own place in Epcot. Horizons was the grand-daddy of them all. Can't say much that hasn't already been said. I do think Horizons is missed more than WoM, not just due to the merits of their respective shows, but based on what replaced them.>> Horizons was the glue that held the concept of EPCOT ... the Future World ideal if you will ... together. I loved WoM myself. Loved the Ward Kimball design and humor. Loved the length. Loved the super speed tunnels. Hell, even loved the futurescape at the end (blew away the tiny one in the last SSE descent). <<Test Track was immediately, immensely popular while M:S is the biggest big-budget disaster to come out of WDI with the exception of DCA and WDSP. Pretty sad that its only rivals for such a distinction are actual wholly-realized parks. So, I do think that plays into folks' slant towards missing Horizons more. Can't blame 'em either. But yes, I probably miss Horizons and WoM more than JII and Toad.>> I think from a personal deal, I miss Journey the most because it was so whimsical, original and Disney through and through. <<Now this is where I say, BUT...... I do believe that JII and Toad where far MORE relevant to the WDW audience when they were removed. I believe they were still timeless attractions. As mentioned now like its age-ol-wisdom, JII of course needed a serious tech and cosmetic upgrade, but thats it. I stated my #1 and #2 as JII and Toad because of that word "impact" Both WERE still popular. Both WERE still loved not just by Fanboys but by the 'average guest'. Both facilities weren't really needed for the next greatest thing, unlike Horizons and WoM. So, outside of my personal rankings, I do believe JII and Toad were the two biggest screw-ups when it came to ride removal. Those two folks at the mouse house wish they had back, with JII being #1. Both removals were simply unnecessary.>> And by that argument again, I agree 100%. They didn't need replacing. FWIW, Horizons had abysmal ridership its last five years ... of course, much of that was influenced by how Disney ran it or ignored it even existed and did its best to make sure people didn't know either.
