Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I have some problems with Toad and JII being the biggest mistakes for attractions that were replaced. I personally loved Toad, but it was nowhere near as popular as Pooh is today. You could always ride Toad with a 20 minutes wait or less. It is not unusual to wait 60+ minutes for Pooh. And that is in JANUARY!<< You're missing the point. It's not an off or on scenario. I know computer guys live in the pleasant world of 1s and 0s, but that's a very narrow-minded view when looking at the real scenarios considered by Disney prior to Toad's closing. No question, the MK benefited from a Pooh attraction. No question, the timing was ripe. The issue is that it should have been built in a number of more beneficial areas in the MK. Areas that would have benefited the guest and the park in the longterm. It didn't need to be and wasn't always a Toad v. Pooh decision. The timing was so right with Hunny Hunt's development that the #1 Disney park ever built (in corporates eyes) should have received a better pooh ride than what they got. That would have avoided the removal of a ride that always had long lines (with a high capacity for a dark ride). A ride that offered another flavor to the MK's guest. Can you imagine the FOUR hour lines Tokyo saw upon, and far after, Hunny Hunt's opening happening in the MK? THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WONDERFUL!! (See I can be positive) It would have undoubtedly pushed more pooh plush and would have only helped down the road when clueless park execs gnashed their teeth about not having POTC or Space Mountain down too long for a proper rehab because of the nasty capacity MK possessed. >>JII had a very popular character but the attraction was drawing relatively few people when it was closed. The mistake was not in re-working the attraction. It needed that. The mistake was reworking it poorly and without the purple whazzit.<< I will remind you again, and again, and again, that you weren't there and that you have no basis to assert such a factual statement. I will admit right here, right now, just to stop having to read this over and over again from you, that I was intimately present. Please stop spewing such nonsense as FACT. It's incorrect. JII's ridership in relation to capacity was no where near as bad as a number of other Epcot and WDW attractions at that time. It's guest surveys were far ahead of some other clunkers, such as the four year old Food Rocks or nine year old Body Wars. Its removal had much more to do with Kodak's contract and with the disdain that had set in with WDW management and with Imagineering for former Disney attractions and traditions. This was occurring before they realized how many retro tees they could hawk. Please stick to your opinions and leave facts surrounding EPCOTs 1998 operations to those who were there. It doesn't bug me in the least that you were incapable of 'getting' what SO MANY people got with the purple whazzit. Please don't muddle your opinion with some sort of stated fact just because it wasn't busy in JANUARY or any other day that you happen to take a snapshot judgment. I say this with the utmost kindness mixed with frustration because it simply ISN'T TRUE and I want to have great conversations with you, RT. >>Horizons absolutely had to be the biggest loss. As has been said, it really embodied the spirit of the original Epcot. Horizons was my favorite Epcot attraction. On the other hand, no one was riding it at the end. On my final Horizons ride I saw NO ONE ELSE IN THE QUEUE until I was in the load area. They were putting people in every 3rd or 4th car. It was really sad,<< I agree with you. It isn't the biggest loss however. It was lost way before you rode it with the low ridership of the last days. Guests don't respond to a show that is neglected and reopened as a stopgap without refurbishment. Horizons was an epic ride but Disney did not get a sliver of the JII complaints for it upon its final closure. JII was one that Disney wished it had back, Horizons ain't. And again, PLEASE, I implore you, YOU ARE SMARTER THAN THIS RT. I KNOW YOU TO BE VERY SMART.......... Please stop judging ridership based on what you see in a queue one night of an operation that is open 365 days a year from 9a-9p. These attractions were designed at the pinnacle of WED. They were designed NOT TO HAVE LINES. The fact that they had long lines in the first ten years of operation is a testament to how revolutionary EPCOT Center and WDW were in the 80s. A year into operation, what was M:S's excuse for not having a line? >>As for BK never making it to the AK… THANK GOD FOR THAT! It would have really trashed the character of the park. At least Dinoland is small enough it can be ignored. I thought it initially worked when they really played up the tongue-in-cheek aspects of Dinoland. They seemed to abandon that early on and now it has no real reason for being other than to sell McDonalds burgers. We stopped going there completely when they shut down Tarzan.<< I too thought the fanboys overrated and feigned melodramatic heartache over BK. I will say that I would take it anyday over some of the junk we got instead. Namely DinoRama, which there is NO excuse for. NONE. Dinoland in and of itself, with Boneyard and Countdown to Extinction I believe to be quality components of the early days of AK.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Except Lee has said -- and I don't doubt him one bit -- that Mermaid isn't in the plans thru 2014. By then MK will be so stale I truly wonder if I'll even visit regularly.<< Lee is in the position to know, no doubt. I would suggest, and I'm sure Lee would agree, that he is not omnipresent. There are rumblings coming out of those close to people who Lee considers to be inconsequential that there is a serious desire to see TLM in MK ASAP. Personally, I hope ASAP means in spite of a 5 year plan and not ASAP~2015. Your guess is as good as mine.
Originally Posted By exp_627 Thank you Spirit, Lee, Dave, ChiMike and all the others for a fascinating read. As a DLP-regular (with all of its tons of problems...) I was really shocked on my first visit to the MK (in '99) how "fake" and "lifeless" it appeared. My second visit in '06 didn't make it any better... We are now planning another Florida vacation (thanks to a strong Euro against the dollar) and I have a hard time justifying spending much time at Disney's once (?) flagship park... It just cannot set my imagination on fire as Epcot or Animal Kingdom. But I suppose that's a general problem of Disney's output these past 10+ years: the latest attractions just don't give my imagination any fodder to dream any further. They all appear to be too clinical, too far removed from any emotional response. What does it say when you're only in your mid-20s and already missing the Disney of old? (Mid-1990's, in my case...)
Originally Posted By -em I havent had time to really catch up and think but do need to say this >> so the company can't give health insurance to its workers or pay a living wage<< All I know is I made almost 5 dollars more an hour and had very equal if not better benefits at Mart than I do now and I was part time there and full time here... If I was part time here the divide would be a LOT wider -em
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost If I might interject in the Chi & Spirit Show here... >>>Test Track was immediately, immensely popular while M:S is the biggest big-budget disaster to come out of WDI with the exception of DCA and WDSP. Pretty sad that its only rivals for such a distinction are actual wholly-realized parks.<<< I cannot agree that MS is a loser. I did, admittedly start out without the best of luck, but the ride itself is awesome, green or orange. The early problems and I really believe coincidences, that happened when it first opened literally scared people away. I read all the hype and it took me three visits before I was able to overcome my fears and actually ride it. I had read about motion sickness and I started to worry about that. The funny thing is I have never had motion sickness in my entire 60 years, why did I think it was going to happen now. Anyway, my point is, M/S is one of the best rides Disney has ever done, in my opinion, but it got a really bad rap in the beginning and was off to a slow start. The longer it goes without incident the more likely it will be that the physiological fears of the ride will be non-existent and M/S will prove itself to be worth the investment. Unfortunately, it is bad raps like that that make the Disney Accountants tighten up. They spent millions on that thing and it sure did look for a while like it was going to be closed almost before it opened. On another note...I am really feeling like I shouldn't even call myself a Fan. I have never, I repeat, never budgeted a penny to buy merchandise at Disney. That was always just a secondary possibility for me. I would buy a couple of small things for the grandkids and maybe a T-shirt but it was strictly impulse, I never planned it. For those of you that go and budget hundreds of dollars to buy overpriced junk, well all I can say is I can't even wrap my brain around the concept. Sorry!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>But I suppose that's a general problem of Disney's output these past 10+ years: the latest attractions just don't give my imagination any fodder to dream any further. They all appear to be too clinical, too far removed from any emotional response.<<< We are totally on the same page. With the exception of Soarin', I think this to be very true. And it is sad. Yesterday I went to the British Museum, and I looked at a number of artifacts (including in the Africa section), and I thought to myself, once upon a time Disney would have remade these artifacts and brought them to life. They do thankfully at DAK, but virtually nowhere else anymore. I do wonder if the other parks have really been the succubus of the the MK's soul. Why reach with Adventureland when we have DAK down the road, or Tomorrowland when we have Epcot's futureworld? Or if we enhance MSUSA< who will want to stay at the Grand Floridian or Boardwalk? Hence the MK becomes one giant Fantasyland/Toontown. Now given even in childhood at DL, Fantasyland did not inspire me much, perhaps that is why I am not inspired by the MK? Those who think of Disney as being fairytale lap it up while I regurgitate my lunch at the froo froo of it all. I like my Disney manly - jungle adventures, the wild frontier, flying into outer space. I always have. Disney used to be about adventure, not so much anymore. People would rather wallow in popular culture it seems, or get in touch with their feminine side.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<>>JII had a very popular character but the attraction was drawing relatively few people when it was closed. The mistake was not in re-working the attraction. It needed that. The mistake was reworking it poorly and without the purple whazzit.<< I will remind you again, and again, and again, that you weren't there and that you have no basis to assert such a factual statement.>> ChiMike... It is not based on personal experience. I had become bored with it so I didn't really ride it much in the later years so I wouldn't know from personal experience. It is based on what I've read from several sources. I will try to find references and post them.
Originally Posted By CarolinaDisneyDad ChiMike.... I didn't take it badly. I knew I had an unpopular minority opinion. Just thought I would give the other side and see where it went. You are right though we are breaking the rules and the system would probably work better if the rules were enforced. BTW welcome back.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 We were there the day TSMM opened up, I'll admit to using FP that day, but still we were in line for about 40 minutes. My main beef with FP is that you miss out on the queue "stories" such as Star Tours. I know Peter Pan doesn't have much to look at while you wait for 60 minutes. But lots of attractions do have things to see or read while you zig and zag, it sets you up for the attraction. My daughter's family flew and got FPs for EE last year, then later she said she regretted not getting to look at what led up to the actual ride. I loved Motion and Horizons, rode them every day I went to EPCOT, not just once every vacation. I will never do MS (stomach won't let me) and really have no desire to ride TT, I can go 65 in the rain on the highway. Big deal. It's just too bad they couldn't have just added TT and MS without getting rid or Motion and Horizons. In '79 I didn't like 20,000, and that was before I gave birth to a son who would eventually end up living on a real submarine for 5 years. I'm sure if they used today's technology, it really could be a great ride, but the way it was... fake fake fake, not thrilling at all.
Originally Posted By A Happy Haunt <<it really could be a great ride>> OMG!! don't you mean "attraction"?
Originally Posted By Skellington88 With respect im starting to question the validity of what Leemac is saying for the simple fact that he has ALWAYS been pro-tom fitzgerald. Now that Tom has been replaced with Bruce and Tom keeps getting pushed out of the limelight LeeMac has started badmouthing WDI and its decisions. I certainly think there is some bias in what he is saying. Tony Baxter walks the parks, talks with fans, and in interviews and documentaries always shows how knowledgable he is about the parks and the entire Disney company. He really comes off as a hardcore Disney fan. Tom Fitz on the other hand never comes off like that. I never see him in the parks on his own, never see him chatting with the fans, and all of the projects with his name on it have been poor (every ride he makes is 99% video screens with really corny dialogue that makes you cringe). In the interviews he never talks about Disney history but rather the usual Disney talking points of "hurr we are always looking to add new technology into the parks and change things becuase Walt believed in change". I will easily take Bruce Vaughn over Fitzgerald/Sklar any day of the week. Especially now that I have seen Eddie Sotto give him the thumbs up.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 Knowing all the characters involved I would say that I always liked Bruce Vaughn but I am surprised in his rise. Tom has never done much for me. Cant put my finger on it but have always felt that when in my interactions with him. I have had very little interaction with Tony so I dont really have an opinion. I have always liked Eric Jacobson and have always enjoyed his work. Nice guy to work with. And I love Kathy Rogers.
Originally Posted By Disney and beyond I grew up at a really weird time to be a Disney Fan, didn't I? I was becoming a fan just as all these changes were happening. I never road Toad, or Horizons, or World of Motion, because I was a very paranoid kid.I thought that every ride was going to some how scare me to death. JII was one my favorites, and Figment remains my favorite Disney Parks Original Characters (in fact, I even have a movie pitch for a JII movie). I do enjoy the modern day interpertation of EPCOT, maybe because I never truely knew the old EPCOT. Sure, I know all about it, and I wish I could go back in time to experience it, but I can't say I would trade it in for the modern day interpertation. (Test Track is in need of a overhaul, and I hope this GM situation will push a change. I enjoy the ride, but It has been getting a bit stale to me lately) I've embraced the FP, but, again, I think its because I grew up with the FP around me. At least you don't have to pay extra for it like Six Flags does. I've always been a rule follower, and I always go within the time. MY dad, however, not so much, and I actually get annoyed that he doesn't follow the times. The only problem I have with the FP system is that the ratio of FP holders to Regular Line people getting in can sometimes be downright puzzling. I saw 30 FP people get on Buzz, then only 10 regular member people got on. It should be the other way. Let more Normal Line people on, because A: There are more people in that line, and B: They have been waiting longer. I have been getting a bit angry at the lack of activity at WDW lately. I just enjoy the classic stuff so much that I really never truely voice my complaints on here. It is looking more and more likely that I will be making the DLR my Disney home (Because even if I don't get into USC, I can basically say I've already gotten in Loyola Marymount) and though I am excited at the prospect of going to a place where action is happening, I'm certainly going to miss the WDW exclusives (such as the good ToT, GMR, AIE (yes I said AIE) JIIw/F, CBJ, and a host of others.) and I'm thankful that Disney was even good for a time, and I pray that when I get the oppertunity to go back to WDW (be it working for the Mouse or not) I hope that it continues to improve) (and IF I ever get into WDI, I promise to try my hardest to put some true Disney Spirit into the parks again.) (And sorry if this is too off the topic)
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>ChiMike... It is not based on personal experience. I had become bored with it so I didn't really ride it much in the later years so I wouldn't know from personal experience. It is based on what I've read from several sources. I will try to find references and post them.<< No problem, RT, seriously... I'll be the first to admit that such statements really get under my skin since I know them to be untrue. It's much easier to read "Whenever I showed up it wasn't busy" rather than "there was never a line" ... Especially considering the capacity Whatever sources you dig up won't do much to change my vocal attitude that such references are clouded in Internet myth, legend & mire. Fanboy talking points, if you will.... For example, JII was seeing more guests than the Land boat ride at the time which was in a giant graveyard of a pavilion. So why didn't they shut down The Land boat ride? Why didn't they re-purpose that pavilion? Easy. A) Cost B) Infrastructure compatibility C) Sponsorship issues JII's redo Had NOTHING to do with ridership or people no longer caring for the pavilion. The only reason the EXTREME outcry came after the redo prior to it (as with Toad) was that people were promised a superior version, and at that poiny of time in the Disney universe the masses really, really, trusted Disney's PR and ability to outdo themselves.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>BTW welcome back.<< Thanks, very nice of you to say that. Like everyone, I'm sure, responsibilities keep growing with the same hours in the day remaining; much harder to break out of 'lurk only mode'
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >>Except Lee has said -- and I don't doubt him one bit -- that Mermaid isn't in the plans thru 2014. By then MK will be so stale I truly wonder if I'll even visit regularly.<< <<Lee is in the position to know, no doubt. I would suggest, and I'm sure Lee would agree, that he is not omnipresent. There are rumblings coming out of those close to people who Lee considers to be inconsequential that there is a serious desire to see TLM in MK ASAP. Personally, I hope ASAP means in spite of a 5 year plan and not ASAP~2015. Your guess is as good as mine.>> I hope so too ... and am waiting to hear him weigh in again. Other sources (none mine) say that this is something that came down very recently. ... But thus far to me it is just chatter. And MK sits ...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Thank you Spirit, Lee, Dave, ChiMike and all the others for a fascinating read.>> Thank you for contributing! <<As a DLP-regular (with all of its tons of problems...) I was really shocked on my first visit to the MK (in '99) how "fake" and "lifeless" it appeared. My second visit in '06 didn't make it any better... We are now planning another Florida vacation (thanks to a strong Euro against the dollar) and I have a hard time justifying spending much time at Disney's once (?) flagship park... It just cannot set my imagination on fire as Epcot or Animal Kingdom.>> Fake and lifeless? I have never used those words myself, but when compared to DL or DLP (or even in some ways HKDL) I can see it. But that goes back to the whole point of the thread ... how much of what makes a place truly special can you take away in the name of greed and short-term results before you have a place that is a mere shadow of its former self? Hollow? <<But I suppose that's a general problem of Disney's output these past 10+ years: the latest attractions just don't give my imagination any fodder to dream any further. They all appear to be too clinical, too far removed from any emotional response.>> Past decade ... since '99 ... hmmm ... PhilharMagic elicits emotion because it's largely scenes and music from great films with the Duck added in ... Soarin reminds me of why I love California so much in spite of all the craziness there ... but ... beyond that ... EE and MS give me an adrenline rush, but not much else ... and ... I think you're right! <<What does it say when you're only in your mid-20s and already missing the Disney of old? (Mid-1990's, in my case...)>> It says that you have a brain and are discerning and know what Disney is capable of. Speaks very highly of you actually! You'd be surprised at how many young folks (as well as just plain Disney newbies) think the MK has never been better.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Anyway, my point is, M/S is one of the best rides Disney has ever done, in my opinion, but it got a really bad rap in the beginning and was off to a slow start. The longer it goes without incident the more likely it will be that the physiological fears of the ride will be non-existent and M/S will prove itself to be worth the investment.>> Is it one of the best ride EFFECTS? But one of the best rides? No. I could give you all my reasons, but I am sure Doobie has them catalogued here. <<Unfortunately, it is bad raps like that that make the Disney Accountants tighten up. They spent millions on that thing and it sure did look for a while like it was going to be closed almost before it opened.>> No, people getting sick and a few tragic deaths (not Disney's fault) did that. The fact that many people get ill on it because of its intensity should have been factored in. Disney should have made an entire Space pavilion, not simply centrifuges in a warehouse with a nice facade. By all internal metrics, MS has been a failure. They weren't planning on spending what was spent so that two centrifuges would be in the off position. <<On another note...I am really feeling like I shouldn't even call myself a Fan. I have never, I repeat, never budgeted a penny to buy merchandise at Disney. That was always just a secondary possibility for me. I would buy a couple of small things for the grandkids and maybe a T-shirt but it was strictly impulse, I never planned it. For those of you that go and budget hundreds of dollars to buy overpriced junk, well all I can say is I can't even wrap my brain around the concept. Sorry!>> You don't have to be a super fan to buy merchandise and there's nothing wrong with not buying a thing. Just understand that retail has been a huge part of the show since 1955 and Disney expects guests to spend since they have for 50-plus years. Just like I am sure there are people out there who have been to WDW many times and have NEVER had a full-serve meal. Or have never watched a parade. Again, doesn't matter. It's all there for a reason.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>Is it one of the best ride EFFECTS? But one of the best rides? No.<<< Good grief...when did a ride effect not be a defining part of the ride. My opinion...one of the best. >>>No, people getting sick and a few tragic deaths (not Disney's fault) did that.<<< You do realize that is what I said, don't you? All the rest of what you said comes from really sharp 20/20 hindsight. >>>Just understand that retail has been a huge part of the show since 1955 and Disney expects guests to spend since they have for 50-plus years.<<< So based on that statement would "shopping" then be considered the "soul" of Disney? Or is it because it is now a "low end" WalMart instead of a "high end" WalMart? Whatever, I'm afraid that I have never in the past nor will I ever accept junk shopping as any part of the soul of the place. I still believe it is in the head of every single one that enters the place. If you see it, it is there. If you don't, it isn't, but it still comes from within.
