Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Bruce was another fanboi favorite. He had a great knowledge of the history of the Company.>> Yes, he certainly did. <<Personally I thought he was an average imagineer (and a pretty horrible book designer) but he was well-regarded. I never worked with him as he was effectively sidelined before I got involved with WDI.>> You are entitled to your opinion, but many would disagree. I consider the Nickel Tour to be one of the most definitive books on DL history. I am anxious to see the Art of WDW book that just came out with his name on it ... <<It is sad that his recklessness in his personal life took his life in the end. Many people have fond memories of Bruce and still talk about him. >> Well, I don't know how he died. I know there's a lot of rumor and speculation, which is never good. I know the family has kept things quiet. But I don't believe that has a place here ... I'd rather judge a man by how he lived and not how he died ... but that's just me. And with that said, it's actually sunny and the beach is calling me ... hope to hear from you and others on this very interesting thread when I return.
Originally Posted By DlandJB <<Tony Baxter walks the parks, talks with fans, and in interviews and documentaries always shows how knowledgable he is about the parks and the entire Disney company. He really comes off as a hardcore Disney fan.>> If that is your measure of what makes a good imagineer then all the power to you. I don't agree that imagineers should converse with fans - I think it should be the complete opposite. It has a tendency to color your opinion of what is right and what is wrong. It also means that imagineers are forced into opinion. WDI is a collective and should act as such>> Lee, you know I love you, but this statement (and one a little further down, "I have an issue with a former SFX cameraman..." ) smacks of elitist snobbery. Disney is in the consumer business - the films, theme parks, cruise ships...if the audience isn't happy, they won't come. So feedback is crucial. Clearly Disney thinks so, or we wouldn't be greeted at nearly ever visit with a smiling castmember holding a monitor and wanting to ask questions. "Forced into an opinion" means what? that they may have to expand their ideas to fit what appeals to their target audience? I venture to be so bold as to say that WDI shouldn't exisit for itself, but for its target audience. The consumers who are going to pony up (or not) for a unique and yes, magical, experience. Any one who wants to work in that creative environment and either wants to treat it like a private club or has distain for the ultimate consumer of the experiences produced by WDI is probably not going to be successful at it. Walt was always at the park when he could get there. He interacted with guests and listened to them. He valued them because he knew if they were happy, they would be back. It isn't rocket science or high art - it is good business. And, as for Bruce Gordon -- he's only been dead for 19 months. I dearly hope people are still talking about us for that length of time or even longer after we've slipped this mortal coi.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> OMG, the fanbois on that said MAGICal side are COMPLETLY delusional ala Palins supporters on Election Night. They REALLY think MK is gonna pull a rabbit out of the hat ala DLs 50th and Mermaid w/ magically appear for teh 40th and the Fantasyland redo (whatever version) happens also. << No they're not delusional, they are merely fans looking, and hoping for something to happen at the MK to talk about. Like all WDW forums you take a rumor, and discuss it. That discussion of the rumor usually has two sides to it. Those who believe it, and those who don't. WDWmagic have some very in the know folks, and some very dedicated WDW fans. Most of them are very aware of the problems that exist there. I would love to have about 99% of them post here.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I think he owes the Spirit dinner at Napa Rose for that one! << You fish for free food like Bill Dance fishes for Bass.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I'd love to hear him weigh on Mermaid/Fantasyland redo ... apparently the fanbois in another magical realm are calling him out and saying it's a done deal ... even worse, they think I'm his biggest supporter/minion. << Me too. The people who want to believe something is going to happen at MK don't want to hear an opposing view. They are not really familar with Lee Mac for the most part, unlike folks here at LP. You noticed that Lee, over at the Magical place, let folks know how reliable Lee Mac is. Let me see, who was that friendly Spirit over at Magic Central that referred to Lee Mac's magazine as the best one out there, and who was it that stood by what he had to say this time? It's pretty easy to support LeeMac's statements, he is not only knowledgeable, but very likeable as well. I'd kiss up to him all month to get him to post what he knows on Shanghai.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I don't know which website you are referring to but what FL redo are they talking about? There are specific plans that have been knocking around for 2 years now for a FL expansion (not a redo - except for the movement of Dumbo and the Tea Cups and the retheming of the Pooh facade nothing else will change) but they can't get traction. The project is north of $500m and there just isn't the desire within WDW Co. to bring it forward. The problem is that the FL expansion will take out capacity from Toontown Faire and therefore if they only do portions of the Master Plan then they won't be adding capacity. The only positive message is that MK needs capacity and management know that - this is a good plan and much of it makes sense as it plays to MK's target audience - families. Two of the attractions in the plans are steller E-Tickets and the third is a good D. They are good plans but no-one wants to commit << This should be good for at least 100 more post. Is there anything further about this project that you can comment on? I know nothing is written in stone when it comes to Disney, but where was the preliminary site location for Dumbo, and the Tea Cups, and what would be lost over in MTTF?
Originally Posted By MPierce >> WOW! Your posts are really impressive today ... maybe I should get me some RC Cola (I don't think you can get it in SoFla anymore). << It only works in conjuction with the MoonPie.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I so want you or someone to tell me I'm wrong and they've finally woken up and smelled something other than pixie dust. << Winky saids you're wrong. Disney has finally seen the light concerning it's World Showcase Castle Park. Please understand he does get a little high if he over indulges in RC, and MoonPie!
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Lee, you know I love you, but this statement (and one a little further down, "I have an issue with a former SFX cameraman..." ) smacks of elitist snobbery. Disney is in the consumer business - the films, theme parks, cruise ships...if the audience isn't happy, they won't come. So feedback is crucial. Clearly Disney thinks so, or we wouldn't be greeted at nearly ever visit with a smiling castmember holding a monitor and wanting to ask questions. "Forced into an opinion" means what? that they may have to expand their ideas to fit what appeals to their target audience? I venture to be so bold as to say that WDI shouldn't exisit for itself, but for its target audience. The consumers who are going to pony up (or not) for a unique and yes, magical, experience. Any one who wants to work in that creative environment and either wants to treat it like a private club or has distain for the ultimate consumer of the experiences produced by WDI is probably not going to be successful at it. Walt was always at the park when he could get there. He interacted with guests and listened to them. He valued them because he knew if they were happy, they would be back. It isn't rocket science or high art - it is good business. << I'm going to venture a bold guess here, and think that Lee was thinking that colaborating with guest on attractions could possibly stiffle the imagination of the WDI. Sometimes the guest need to be shown what they are going to like. I doubt if the normal person could have invisioned POTC or COP or HM or ToT. I think it's good to know, and like your fan base, but never rely to much on their dreams or vision. I think the Imagineers should be elitist in their work. I do not perceive that as being elitist snobs in the way they present themselves. Just my Opinion.
Originally Posted By leemac <<So ... this means it isn't happening? Or you don't know? Or you can't say?>> Projects are always in a state of flux but the FL expansion is not on the boards at present (ie. not budgeted for or even beyond blue sky thinking). There has been discussion on Eric's project for about two years now. I just don't think there is an appetite for this massive capital commitment at the moment. Particularly with the Grand Hawaiian absorbing over $1bn now (massively up since the budget was first presented) and The National project in DC likely to cost a similar amount. One interesting development is that Joe Rohde has taken on the Grand Hawaiian. Virtually 90% of the design phase has been completed but an imagineer with no hospitality experience is now leading it. I **love** Joe but ultimately his own credential to lead this project is that he lived in Hawaii for a while. He has never designed or built a hotel.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>I'm going to venture a bold guess here, and think that Lee was thinking...<< No need to venture any guesses, bold or otherwise, at what Lee was thinking. It was stated very plainly in post #276: >>I don't agree that imagineers should converse with fans - I think it should be the complete opposite. It has a tendency to color your opinion of what is right and what is wrong. It also means that imagineers are forced into opinion...<<
Originally Posted By leemac <<<<Personally I thought he was an average imagineer (and a pretty horrible book designer) but he was well-regarded. I never worked with him as he was effectively sidelined before I got involved with WDI.>> You are entitled to your opinion, but many would disagree. I consider the Nickel Tour to be one of the most definitive books on DL history. >> That one I would agree. Every other Gordon book has been "meh" for me. The Art of Disneyland presented as a portrait book that features almost exclusively landscape images? What were they thinking? The Annual thing they tried was an ugly mess - a hodgepodge of styles. Ultimately he got those gigs on his connections to DPW rather than merit.
Originally Posted By MPierce >>I don't agree that imagineers should converse with fans - I think it should be the complete opposite. It has a tendency to color your opinion of what is right and what is wrong. It also means that imagineers are forced into opinion...<< I happen to agree with that statement when it comes to looking for ideas.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Lee, you know I love you, but this statement (and one a little further down, "I have an issue with a former SFX cameraman..." ) smacks of elitist snobbery. Disney is in the consumer business - the films, theme parks, cruise ships...if the audience isn't happy, they won't come. So feedback is crucial. Clearly Disney thinks so, or we wouldn't be greeted at nearly ever visit with a smiling castmember holding a monitor and wanting to ask questions.>> Sorry that didn't come off right then. My point was that you push imagineers into the public eye and they will be asked questions about all projects including other imagineer's projects. So you have Tony claiming to have created the original concept for Tower of Terror and claim the Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage as his entirely his own. WDI/WDP&R need to take some responsibility - you push someone out there as the "face" of imagineering and you need to deal with the consequences. Tony is a media whore at best. I do take issue with someone wholly unqualified taking up the EVP, CCE role. Bruce has ever executed a single attraction. His claim to fame was pushing through the Simba purring wristband (that failed), Pal Mickey (that failed) and Lucky. And those came entirely from the WDI R&D who continue to struggle to create a viable walk-around Living Characters Program creation. He was pushing up from VP to EVP without any time at SVP or even having any role with 1401F. His resume includes time as a SFX cameraman - a very honorable post but worth of running the entire creative division of WDP&R? Not in my opinion. He may just be an administrator but he hasn't justified his promotion at all.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> One interesting development is that Joe Rohde has taken on the Grand Hawaiian. Virtually 90% of the design phase has been completed but an imagineer with no hospitality experience is now leading it. I **love** Joe but ultimately his own credential to lead this project is that he lived in Hawaii for a while. He has never designed or built a hotel. << Mr Rohde, along with the proper team, seem to have a grand vision. That certainly has been proven. Especially when they have the appropriate budget. Maybe that will be enough. Who would you consider, that had a background in hospitality, would be better suited to head this project?
Originally Posted By leemac <<Who would you consider, that had a background in hospitality, would be better suited to head this project?>> I'd prefer an architect or interior designer to lead the creative efforts. Someone from Creative Development should be used for any aspects that requires storytelling. There are enough people within the business that are better qualified. But Joe is a SVP with a single park portfolio that has nothing going into it any time soon. WDI needed to find an appropriate role for him.
Originally Posted By CaptainMichael hmm...Joe Rhode designing the new Hawaii resort...wonder if we may be seeing a version of the Adventurers Club there...
Originally Posted By ADMIN <font color="#FF0000">Message removed by an administrator. <a href="MsgBoard-Rules.asp" target="_blank">Click here</a> for the LaughingPlace.com Community Standards.</font>
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>He has never designed or built a hotel.<< Sometimes, a creative person comes up with innovative things no one who follows the "rules" would ever come up with. They aren't going to be perhaps as boxed in as a person who is a "hotel guy." Remember that Disneyland was designed by movie makers largely, and not people with degrees in theme park design. So, they came up with a whole new art form and changed everything. Add to it that he designed one hell of a beautiful park in Animal Kingdom. I am sure he and his team are more than up to the task.
