Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 OK ... back from the beach and seem to have missed so much (yeah Pierce, I am bronzed now ... I also saw a few manta rays -- I told them they should go ride the new coaster at SWO and write a review for LP.com, but they were aloof and swam off!) So, while I'd love to get back to discussing the MK losing its soul by moving on to Frontierland, there's way too much that needs covering here first. Where was I? Oh yeah ... this post by Leemac: <<Ultimately Paul must take the rap for DCA, WDSP and HKDL. Budgets had already been set in stone for HKDL prior to Paul's departure.>> I don't believe Paul, someone I liked on a personal level but thought was a disaster as soon as he left The Disney Stores, can be held responsible for those parks. Partially? Certainly. But not fully. Not even close. A company like Disney doesn't let the head of P&R make those choices by himself ... Eisner was a micro-manager with the parks. And Iger (especially with HKDL) was certainly a party as well. You just won't convince me that Paul (as popular a baddie as he is in the fan community) got to make all the calls on the parks. Hell, wasn't Paul still in Anaheim when DCA was decided/conceived at the famed exec retreat? And China? Disney's first chance at the largest untapped market in the world and it was all left to Paul? Nope. Not buying. And did Jay have no say on anything once he took over? Did he just accept things because Paul had decreed? If Jay and Bob are half the leaders some people allege (certainly not this Spirit), then one would reasonable conclude they had to see the errors of the past with DCA and DSP and would have been damn certain not to repeat the problems on huge stage like China. Did they really think a worldly audience in HK was going to beat down the doors for a McDL that opened with arguably less than a dozen attractions? <<He left behind a string of failed projects that are costing the company billions to get right now. That is not the type of legacy you want.>> No. It isn't. But I think people will view them more as part of Eisner's Legacy ... just as people will view Bob in terms of how he fixes those messes, while not ignoring other parks and parts of the company. DCA is certainly moving in the right direction ... DSP is as well, although it has far more basic problems. And HKDL ... has a summer of Stitch. And I don't get why fanbois could have told anyone with a pulse that DCA, DSP and HKDL were not being built the right way ... the Disney Way ... yet so many execs got wealthier by 'building parks on the cheap.' <<I'm still friends with Paul but even he needs to squarely accept that he has adversely affected WDP&R for a generation. A sad legacy indeed.>> One would question whether Paul would feel the same if he read this. I'm not being a smart-ass here, your sense of frustration and anger at the stupidity at Disney is raw and palpable in this thread ... and I do respect that. But your (public) opinions have done a 180 from say 3-4 years ago (or even more recently) and that only makes me fear that things are truly very bad behind the scenes. If you're right about Paul's legacy I must ask what do you think Jay's legacy will be? Paul cared at least. He may have been clueless about the business, but he didn't set out to destroy Disney P&R. Jay is all about money. I've never seen him enjoying the parks. I've never heard one person (who isn't a Disney PR whore) say they have seen him. He views Disney parks as WalMart views stores. You can't put a numbers guy in charge of a Magic Factory and expect he'll get it.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Tony Baxter walks the parks, talks with fans, and in interviews and documentaries always shows how knowledgable he is about the parks and the entire Disney company. He really comes off as a hardcore Disney fan.>> <<If that is your measure of what makes a good imagineer then all the power to you. I don't agree that imagineers should converse with fans - I think it should be the complete opposite. It has a tendency to color your opinion of what is right and what is wrong. It also means that imagineers are forced into opinion. WDI is a collective and should act as such.>> I am not even going to offer an opinion as to what you just said. I'm just going to state the facts ... Disney wants as a company to have celeb Imagineers ... whether its Tony Baxter hanging with fans at a convention, Tom Fitzgerald talking on a Travel Channel infomercial or Marty Sklar playing Ambassador. D23 is just going to put the official Mouse seal on it. <<I will easily take Bruce Vaughn over Fitzgerald/Sklar any day of the week. Especially now that I have seen Eddie Sotto give him the thumbs up. >> <<I have no idea how you know that Sotto gives Bruce the "thumbs-up" but being that he has been gone from WDI longer than Bruce's rise from VP to EVP I don't know how he can reach an opinion.>> Everyone can have an opinion. Some are more educated or timely ... but Eddie has said some complimentary things about Bruce. <<Sotto was a talented imagineer but he was very vocal in his dissent which is why he is perceived poorly by management.>> Interesting. Anything you can go into? One might say with what has happened in the decade since Eddie left WDI that if more folks had spoken out loudly that Disney wouldn't be spending so much time and money fixing all the things it got so wrong. FWIW, I have talked to Eddie about the main topic of this thread and have gotten some interesting feedback ... stuff I'll share when we get back to that topic ... frankly, at this point, this stuff is more timely if not compelling. <<I have an issue with a former SFX cameraman like Vaughn being catapaulted from VP of WDI R&D to EVP, Chief Creative Executive just to be Jay's hatchetman. He is entirely beholden to Jay and didn't get the role on merit. That is my beef. I have nothing against Bruce at all - he is a likeable enough individual. I do take offense to his political manoeuvrings.>> So, you're complaining because Bruce didn't get his job on merit (possibly true)? My response would be 'so what else is new'? ... Not just at WDI, not just at Disney, but anywhere/everywhere people don't often get their positions simply on talent (see most of Jay's P&R talent, especially WDW exec 'leadership' team) ... it's all about agendas. And really hasn't the past five years been largely about Jay cementing his power base? Everything from the execs he's placed around the globe to his gamesmanship in Glendale are all about solidifying his standing. That's not a good thing for the company, WDI, cast, fans and guests ... but I've been saying it for years now. Bob obviously couldn't care less ... Eisner may have spent two decades at the top of the Mouse House, but I doubt Iger will be there much more than half that ... if that long. Ego aside, he'll take his hundreds of millions and walk away ...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<WDWmagic have some very in the know folks, and some very dedicated WDW fans.>> Yeah. I may have broken bread with a few of those Spirits of late <<Most of them are very aware of the problems that exist there. I would love to have about 99% of them post here. >> You been drinking again (not the RC)?!? I would love to see many of the folks there posting here (we already have many in our midst, not all posting). But not 99%, not nearly. People have asked me to post this thread ... well, the OP anyway on that site and I won't. Because it will degenerate into a 'if you hate WDW so much why go? why don't you go to Universal? are you a disgruntled ex-CM? etc' line. This type of intelligent discussion that has raised so many questions, points, tangents simply wouldn't happen over there. It's a shame because there are some terrific people over there ... but they have a lot of crazies too ... and a lot of folks who like to post about nothing ... all the time. >> I think he owes the Spirit dinner at Napa Rose for that one! << <<You fish for free food like Bill Dance fishes for Bass.>> Who is Bill Dance? Will he buy me dinner? And I blame Obama. During the great Bush years I never had to wear an online billboard that says 'Will Entertain and Spill Disney Secrets For Food!' It's all Obama's fault!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Me too. The people who want to believe something is going to happen at MK don't want to hear an opposing view. They are not really familar with Lee Mac for the most part, unlike folks here at LP. You noticed that Lee, over at the Magical place, let folks know how reliable Lee Mac is.>> Notice I have ... that Lee knows his stuff too. But the folks there seem to not take kindly to strange Spirits who swoop in and tend to know their $^*#. I am not sure they have forgiven me for telling the world the wand was coming down! <<Let me see, who was that friendly Spirit over at Magic Central that referred to Lee Mac's magazine as the best one out there, and who was it that stood by what he had to say this time?>> I try and be a fair Spirit. Leemac and I don't always see eye to eye (although apparently our difference are a whole lot less than they once were). Tales is the best fanzine out there. I haven't even asked for a free year's subscription for talking it up. I've now seen two issues of D23 and they pale in comparison to Tales. They are glossy commercials for TWDC with little substance. And I am not standing by him per se on this issue ... just saying I trust his information. He isn't going to put his rep on the line here by spouting that Mermaid isn't coming soon unless he knows it isn't ... otherwise he could say he can't comment or even say he isn't sure. So ... yeah, I will tell the fanbois on the magical site that they need to go easy on pixie dust. <<It's pretty easy to support LeeMac's statements, he is not only knowledgeable, but very likeable as well.>> I don't know. We haven't met. We have been in very close proximity on more than one occasion though. <<I'd kiss up to him all month to get him to post what he knows on Shanghai.>> You do that ... I'd email some folks I know in Evil Godless Communist China, but I think Homeland Security might be watching my email.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >> I so want you or someone to tell me I'm wrong and they've finally woken up and smelled something other than pixie dust. << <<Winky saids you're wrong. Disney has finally seen the light concerning it's World Showcase Castle Park. Please understand he does get a little high if he over indulges in RC, and MoonPie!>> I understand ... now, remind me again ... what's a MoonPie (and doesn't it have lots of fat in it!)?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Projects are always in a state of flux but the FL expansion is not on the boards at present (ie. not budgeted for or even beyond blue sky thinking). There has been discussion on Eric's project for about two years now. I just don't think there is an appetite for this massive capital commitment at the moment.>> Frankly, even in the best of times I can't imagine the conservative WDC investing half a billion in the cash cow park. That is a huge number. What does that cover? Unless the other two attractions are much more complex than I've heard (basic dark ride in existing facility and family coaster ... which someone reminded me tonight could be simply repurposing the Barnstormer like what is happening to MM at DCA) where is the cost coming from? <<Particularly with the Grand Hawaiian absorbing over $1bn now (massively up since the budget was first presented) and The National project in DC likely to cost a similar amount.>> How can a 500-room hotel in DC cost a billion? (even if Tony were designing it I still couldn't see it costing more than $925 million! ) Seriously, though. Are the planning a regional entertainment type component? Because outside of Vegas, hotels just don't cost that. <<One interesting development is that Joe Rohde has taken on the Grand Hawaiian. Virtually 90% of the design phase has been completed but an imagineer with no hospitality experience is now leading it. I **love** Joe but ultimately his own credential to lead this project is that he lived in Hawaii for a while. He has never designed or built a hotel.>> Talent is talent. And Joe has it in spades. I'm guessing he's doing this because nothing of substance is coming to DAK for a while (someone tell the fanbois on that magical site) and Jay's wet-dream boutique animal park isn't just DOA, it ain't coming back in another form? Oh, and if 90% of design is done, why bring Joe in now? Seems late in the game unless they had to give him something or risk him walking ... And on that note ... I'll write you all a little later.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Jay's wet-dream boutique animal park isn't just DOA, it ain't coming back in another form?>> It is a dead as the proverbial dodo which was entirely the right decision for once. It just isn't the right concept for Walt Disney World and I'm glad that common sense killed Shangri-La sooner rather than later.
Originally Posted By leemac <<A company like Disney doesn't let the head of P&R make those choices by himself >> I could write a book on this particular topic, Spirit, but ultimately Michael did defer more decision-making to Paul once he replaced Judson (who Michael didn't like at all). Please don't take this as patronising - it honestly isn't meant to be - but I think you don't fully understand how long it takes to get a park design up and running. HKDL was effectively all done by the time Jay took over the '02. It is even harder when you are dealing with a partner - and a souvereign partner to boot - you just can't squeeze out more once they have agreed to the existing budget. It is like turning the Titanic around on a dime. You need to get your master planning done up front. Once Wing Chao's views on the lack of attractions and the poor attraction mix had been ignored Paul ploughed forward. You have to remember that Timur Galen was the lead delivery executive on the project and his impact is still being felt. John Verity was left to pick up the pieces and just executed what he was given.
Originally Posted By leemac <<<<Sotto was a talented imagineer but he was very vocal in his dissent which is why he is perceived poorly by management.>> Interesting. Anything you can go into?>> That wouldn't be fair to Eddie. I have never worked with Eddie nor do I know him personally but one of his closest friends at WDI is also a mutual friend so I'd want to do nothing to tarnish his legacy at WDI - particularly as he conceived EDL's stunning Main Street. All I will say is that Eddie was seen (rightly or wrongly) as a dissenting voice within WDI and therefore his vocal criticisms whether founded or not were poorly received. Their loss IMHO.
Originally Posted By leemac <<What does that cover? Unless the other two attractions are much more complex than I've heard (basic dark ride in existing facility and family coaster ... which someone reminded me tonight could be simply repurposing the Barnstormer like what is happening to MM at DCA) where is the cost coming from?>> The FL Expansion is all about meeting the mission statement for MK - family adventures (I'm paraphrasing). Every park has a mission statement now and that is how future development is being driven. The MK project involves a lot of infrastructure moves (existing FL and Toontown Faire), redesigning of the current Pooh area, an entirely indoor facilities for the FL expansion and three attractions - one of which I haven't heard anyone mention which is interesting and makes me wonder where the leaks come from. Quite frankly the third attraction is the most exciting for me so it makes sense that it is that one that won't happen! The show building will be huge. Guests have asked for more indoor experiences so the decision to create an indoor Toontown experience at MK should be a no-brainer.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 Ah Paul Pressler. You can sum up the problems at the Disney parks with that one name. It is like Eisner woke up one morning and said to himself "Rides dont make money, stores do. Let's put the guy in charge of The Disney Stores, which are making a lot of money, and put him in charge of the parks. We will turn the parks into stores!" Pressler was a nice guy who didnt understand his product. It is true that Eisner never liked Judson. I am not sure why. I thought he was ok.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Before I get back to this meaty thread ... the fanbois on MAGIC are 'confirming' Mermaid is on for MK based largely on this latest tidbit. Apparently, Kris Theiler (VP of operations support for domestic parks and resorts) blabbed with some DL CMs about what's happening in the Disney universe. She spoke about DCA expansion and then talked about MK (this was what was posted, I have no knowledge of it). Apparently, she said she was working on a major project for MK and it would be announced soon, which got everyone lathered up. She supposedly said an announcement would come 'soon'. She also said Disney was experimenting with a pay version of FP in HKDL. So ... that's the latest there. Any truth to this?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I'd prefer an architect or interior designer to lead the creative efforts. Someone from Creative Development should be used for any aspects that requires storytelling. There are enough people within the business that are better qualified. But Joe is a SVP with a single park portfolio that has nothing going into it any time soon. WDI needed to find an appropriate role for him.>> While I'd prefer seeing Joe working on something amazing for Florida, I'd rather see him working on this project than hearing about he's leaving the company.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<No disrepect JB but I wholly disagree. WDI shouldn't be guided by what their audience want - they should anticipate trends and great attractions that guests didn't even conceive as possible.>> Did LeeNumbersMacDonald just get replaced with the Spirit of Uncle Walt? ;-) Seriously, that's what they should be doing. But they seem to have stopped. No one can seriously look at what's been added to WDW post DAK and think creative ... vision ... giving people what they didn't know they wanted. I know I don't like it when people (or little blue aliens) belch in my face .... I know I don't like it when large immersive attractions are replaced with warehouse buildings with spartan interiors. ... I know I don't like it when marketing celebrations and giant icons are thrown into parks in place of substance. <<Globally the parks attract 100m people - it just isn't possible to cater to everyone - that forms homogeneous experiences that look like Imagineering By Committee. You need to empower your imagineers to do what they feel is right based on their experience and expertise. Parks need something for everyone and should be looked upon as a single entity - the sums of the parts need to provide experiences for every taste but you can't build individual attractions like that. You need to look at the overall masterplan and decide what is needed and where. Otherwise you end up with HISTA in Tomorrowland and a park like DCA will no true family experience when it opened. SSL doesn't count.>> Agreed ... the fact that HISTA is still playing in four Disney parks worldwide in 2009 is sad enough ... adding it to DL in 1998 when it already was tired and dated was worse ... and DCA did have a family experience ... Muppetvision 3D ... a decade old movie with great characters that had largely been driven to irrelevance. <<I'm passionate about WDI and wish it had greater creative independence again. It needs to bring more ideas through Blue Sky without running the risk of them getting nixed by committees along the way. There needs to be room for gut instincts.>> Well ... it all depends on whose gut we're going with! <<Michael Eisner always told me that you need to take risks. Every single projection told him NOT to build Tower of Terror. It was too expensive and didn't look like it would have sufficient impact. However the park needed another signature experience so he went with it. It was entirely the right decision and he made the choice on gut. Everyone else thought it was too expensive. Michael acted as CEO and took the risk.>> Ah, so are you back to being a Michael fan? I just want to try and keep a clean scorecard here. But yeah, ToT was a great decision. Plopping down a giant hat/pin shack in front of the Chinese Theater wasn't ... But I agree with far more of what Michael did from a parks standpoint than other aspects of the company. He drove WDI to great heights especially in his first 10-15 years (or whenever OLC was picking up the bill). That's why it's very sad that the guy that was at the helm for DLP, DAK and TDS was also the guy there for DCA, DSP and HKDL. You can't build 'parks on the cheap' ... you can't. I sincerely hope that Shanghai resembles DLP a lot more than HKDL. More on content than look. <<Bob and Jay rule by committee after committee. It becomes like joining the Masons - it only take one black ball to nix the whole thing. And you may never find out why. WDI needs to get back to being the creative heart of the whole Company. It is such a diverse organization and every single imagineer could have a positive influence on every other business unit.>> So ... you're saying that Bob and Jay aren't good for P&R and WDI, then? Or at least their management style isn't (if you feel like tempering things ... not that anyone of consequence ever reads what this Spirit writes anyway!) Because I've said that for years ... it's like little fiefdoms and so long as they eventually kowtow to Jay they can cause things to not happen (like some of what has or hasn't gone down at MK with Phil 'Stop Picking on My Escalade You Mean Spirit' Holmes).
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Perhaps to keep him from walking? Rumor on the grapevine awhile back suggested Rohde and Trowbridge were not happy campers and threatened to leave if not given something major to work on.>> <<Scott has been passed over for Shanghai so I'm guessing he isn't a happy camper. He sticks at R&D. A terrible shame as he is a talented fellow - and he has the people management skills that are sorely lacking at WDI. He was sold a lemon when he agreed to leave UniC.>> If Scott isn't getting Shanghai, then the obvious question is who is? Has it been decided? Tom M. or Joe L.? (tossing those out for obvious reasons) What about Delaney? Would they ever give him something so large scale? And it does seem that Scott could/should be doing a whole lot more ...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I should add that the previous senior editor at Disney Editions was obsessed over a small collection of writers and designers - Kurtti and Gordon were her favorites. I'd personally prefer to see some new writers and designers and hopefully that will happen now that particular editors has been moved on.>> Disney seems to always go to the same well ... whether that's good or not is debatable. I've never seen any book about Disney food or gardening type stuff that didn't come with Pam Brandon's name on it ... apparently the books were/are lucrative enough for her to not be a PR hack for the Mouse. But it does seem to be same old whether it's execs, Imagineers or authors ...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<It will function as a hotel, but it will be MORE than that. Personally, I can't wait to see what they come up with. No one does themed environments like Disney at their best, and I am sure Mr. Rhode and his team will come up with something innovative, amazing and wholly functional, too.>> Good point. Besides, it could have been worse -- he could have gotten the latest redo of the DLH (why they don't just implode the place and build a worthy resort is beyond me). Haven't commented on that news on the DL Board yet, but you know its very-much lacking in substance when the press release touts the fiber-optic castle in the headboards (yeah fanbois are wetting themselves over that one!) and green stuff like low-flow toilets (not good) and sensors on the temp (even worse).
Originally Posted By MPierce You're always so negative. Why do you even post here? You should be banned or deported!
Originally Posted By MPierce The precedeing post has been a reinactment of a typical response to Spirit.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Jay's wet-dream boutique animal park isn't just DOA, it ain't coming back in another form?>> <<It is a dead as the proverbial dodo which was entirely the right decision for once. It just isn't the right concept for Walt Disney World and I'm glad that common sense killed Shangri-La sooner rather than later.>> We totally agree on that. BTW, you're the first person I've seen use the real project name and not the insipid Night Kingdom. WDW needs no more parks, no more timeshares or hotels, no more giant Mickey pieces ... and no more marketing scams. It needs billions pumped into its four gates, two water parks and TSFKaPI. It also needs the vision and creativity that ensures the money is well spent and an investment in the future of the resort. I don't see any of that.
