Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >> just all toons all the time. Sadly, I don't believe any of the other parks except perhaps TDL still have any saloon shows anymore.<< Ah, TDL. Why is it always TDL? Seriously. Spirit, you know I'm enamored with the place, and I know why. They've remained true to what Walt wanted. (Uh Oh- WWWD?!?) But why is that? You would think a foreign park would be the first to stray. Spirit, anyone? Care to add your conjecture?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 So, now we've crossed the bridge near the Crystal Palace (forget about a quiet meal in an elegant location ... that changed in the late 1990s when it was 'tooned) navigating a sea of parked strollers, wheelchairs and ECVs (no Segways ... yet). We feel our pulse race as we head into Adventureland, which will take us to exotic lands, bring us face to face with marauding pirates sacking a town, on a cruise down tropical rivers and inside a magical pavilion where singing birds will put on an island-style show for us. We can climb a treehouse built by the ingenious shipwrecked Robinson family. Or perhaps we can discover a treasure from Asia, Africa or the Caribbean in seven unique shops. And long before Dole Whip became a fan fave we could get a citrus swirl with OJ and vanilla soft serve. We could even have a family portrait taken in replica pirate garb (none of the West Hollywood Jack Sparrow makeup, though!) and then relax by listening to a steel drum band before heading to the Adventureland Veranda for a teriyaki and pineapple burger or perhaps a Lo Mein salad. Yeah. That was then. Now? Well, as soon as you cross the bridge you can smell the tropics ... if by tropics you mean a bunch of sunscreen-slathered tourists taking a smoke on what was once one of the best locations in the kingdom to watch the world go by. Watch those smokers and maybe you can forget they are standing in front of a HUGE dining facility that hasn't been open regularly since 1994. Oh well, you can take your mind off that by looking at the magical merchandise carts that now reside to the left. At least there is a timeshare info kiosk in what once was a dining alcove for the Veranda because really what is more magical than timeshares (right Trippy?) The Treehouse is still there, but it's seen better days. Thatch is expensive, what can you do? You get the feeling that it would be removed if not for the expense it would cause. You can take a Jungle Cruise, but just how much fun you'll have is largely dependent on both your skipper (some are very good and others ... aren't) and the crew he/she carries. Some folks are in constant commando mode in 2009 because WDW is both a vastly larger place and a vastly more expensive place to visit (current depression era discounts aside) ... and those folks don't seem to get the point in the end (they just look like they're getting it all the time) and they don't seem impressed by the amazing backside of water either. Shopping? Well, since many exotic locales depicted in A-Land have flea markets and outdoors markets that's what's happened here ... c'mon you can't fault Disney, right? They're just being authentic. So what if they've actually shuttered a half dozen shops and moved merchandise outside to non-air-conditioned areas? That's just realistic, right? And hey, no complaining here about a decrease in attractions as the A-Land of 2009 has actually more attractions in it than the 1979 or 1989 versions. So what if it's just a carnival spinner loosely themed to Aladdin and dropped down in the center of the land? So what if it clashes with the more realistic look of the area as WED designed? Besides, WDI added cartoon characters to the Tiki Room in the mid-90s in an attempt to be more hip with the MTV Generation. The trouble is Disney has never been hip and will never be hip. That's the nature of the product. And there's nothing wrong with that. Hungry? Well, since those burgers at the Veranda are ancient history just like the sweet and sour chicken it's a good thing Disney thought of you and quadrupled the size of the seating area for The Pirate and The Parrot snackbar by removing 3-4 shops. Oh ... but what's that you say? The location is only open 2-3 months a year at busy times. So, if you want a meal in A-Land it's going to either be an egg roll (think frozen warehouse club variety) and a Dole Whip. No real food in the wilds any longer. Would you like a nice quiet place with fountains to sit and take in the amazing Disney atmosphere while recovering from a ride with the Pirates? ... Well, you see that's no longer possible. Disney decided having a nautical shop (one that had some very kewl items like ships in bottles, models, globes, paintings of REAL pirates etc ...) wasn't good enough because exiting guests could bypass it opting for the quiet beauty of Caribbean Plaza. So ... what to do? USE YOUR IMAGINATION! That's right. Close the themed, AC shop. Move merchandise out into the plaza. Swap out the high quality stuff for tees, plush, plastic swords and all type of flea market merchandise. Cover literally every inch of the plaza ... and after 5-6 years add tacky gates because you wouldn't want a disgruntled (and how could there possibly be any?) CM walking off with some merchandise after hours. Oh, and those pesky fountains that were designed to make the CP look and feel tranquil? Just let the pipes rot when you turn them off. Put some potted plants inside them and hope the guests don't toss too much trash in them. But lest you find this Spirit a doom and gloomer, a Debbie Downer, a rightwing talk show host ... there's this glimmer ... of ... of ... well, you be the judge. Because the Golden Galleon will be reopening ... no, not as a shop. Pish-posh. No, it will be a makeup salon for your little pirate (if he wants to play pirates too much, wear makeup like Captain Jack and was really into the Tony's tonight ... he might ... um ... ah ... make a really great WDW CM soon!) Main Street lost its soul. Adventureland lost its soul. Has Frontierland? Come back next time ... or can someone else handle it and I'll add some comments? (you've all heard this before anyway!)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Ah, TDL. Why is it always TDL? Seriously. Spirit, you know I'm enamored with the place, and I know why. They've remained true to what Walt wanted. (Uh Oh- WWWD?!?) But why is that? You would think a foreign park would be the first to stray. Spirit, anyone? Care to add your conjecture?>> First, it's a cultural thing. In Japan, quality and guest service really matter ... matter a lot. You haven't had the WalMarting that has happened in the USA. The constant lowering of expectations in seemingly every facet of our lives. People are more accepting of lower quality whether they even realize it here. How many people might see an overflowing trash can and blame guests ... or see s dirty restroom and do likewise? How many people will say they don't care whether the Yeti ever works right ... whether B'rer Rabbit hops around the LP ... whether you can hear anything clearly in PoC? When fans don't even care, you have a problem. There's very little incentive to do things the old way, the right way, the Disney Way! As to TDR, you have the culture of quality that the OLC adheres to ... and strangely enough you also have TWDC breathing down their necks with their own team of management who have final say on many things. I have heard people at Disney tell me that Disney enforces things on the OLC that it has long since stopped caring about in its own parks. How true that is I can't say. But I don't know one person who has visited TDR that hasn't said the place out-Disney's Disney's own resorts.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss The soul of a place...any place, not just Disney...comes from the people that run the joint.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<The soul of a place...any place, not just Disney...comes from the people that run the joint. >> That's very scary ... because many of the Disney P&R execs I have met have ... well ... no souls at all. Seriously.
Originally Posted By DlandDug Hey, hey! >>Sadly, I don't believe any of the other parks except perhaps TDL still have any saloon shows anymore.<< Billy Hill and the Hillbillies are still holding forth at Walt's beloved Golden Horseshoe. And packing them in, day after day, show after show. You can buy a full meal, a cold drink, or an honest-to-goodness ice cream sundae, pull up a chair in Walt's old box seat (better get there an hour early, though) and listen to some good music and corny jokes. So... sorry about the Diamond Horseshoe. I've never been inside-- it's never been open when I was in Florida...
Originally Posted By leemac <<Sadly, I don't believe any of the other parks except perhaps TDL still have any saloon shows anymore.>> All four saloon shows are essentially pay-per-view - they are all lunch/dinner shows with cover charges. OLC don't make a dime in profit on those shows - they simply cover their costs.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I have heard people at Disney tell me that Disney enforces things on the OLC that it has long since stopped caring about in its own parks.>> I wouldn't agree with that statement if you are talking SQS, Spirit. SQS is primarily policed by OLC themselves - but they have the downtime to do it as they take virtually every E-ticket out for 2-4 weeks annually and have a fixed park closing time - neither park has a regular operating close of later than 10pm except for NYE. WDAJ is focused more on marketing, merchandise and ensuring that the characters and trademarks are used appropriately.
Originally Posted By leemac Spirit - to me the question that you pose suggests the MK had a soul in the first place. I can't speak for the '70s as my first visit was in '81 but MK has always been just a themed mass-market theme park to me. All of the quirks and nuances that make DL such a densely themed experience are lacking in MK. Virtually every architectural decision (except for the castle) led to an inferior product but it was designed to handle significantly larger crowds. The wide walkways of both MK and TDL destroy any sense of true immersion that might yield discovery or wonder. So I'd argue that MK never had a soul in the first place. It was my first introduction to Disney theme parks but it was EPCOT Center that changed the way my family spent their vacation time. MK has always been the last choice for my vacation time - even D-MGM is above it. It is ironic that MK has become a victim of its own success. The park is significantly undercapacity at the moment in terms of attractions (north of 10k per hour at the moment on WDP&R's metrics) and there are areas that need refurbishment but the uniqueness of the guest mix (over 95% are tourists which is over 200 bps higher than any other Disney resort) means it is difficult to take attractions out of action for a considerable length of time. I don't agree with that statement - but it is a reality that WDW has to grapple with. MK is the cash cow - it is the driving force behind WDW and the most profitable engine of the resort. It feeds the development at the rest of the resort - the problem is that nothing gets fed back to the cash cow. And any students of business management will tell you that there are few cash cows that remain cash cows if they aren't properly maintained.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>I will say that I have never felt any sense of "magic" in the Magic Kingdom. Don't get me wrong. I like it just fine. But it has always felt very generic and plastic to me. It feels like just a bigger version of something that is a little more special.<<< This is encouraging to hear Dug. I wondered if it was growing up at Disneyland that did this to me (though I don't have that problem at DLP either). My wife is the same - Disneyland is her favorite, although she was in her late 20's on her 1st visit. DLP is her second fav (early 20's on her 1st visit) and the MK is one of her least fav parks despite visiting for the 1st time 2 years after going to DLP for the 1st time.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>I suppose you all could be right, but what is missing for me is the sense of discovery. It just isn't new to me anymore. I'd like it to feel like it did when I first went but that would not be possible. I've seen it too much. It has become stale in my minds eye. I don't want to see it change but it is a very huge been there...done that experience now. It might have had as many flaws back then as it does now but I was to busy discovering to notice the flaws all I saw was the magic.<<< It is funny. I have been to WDW in 1978, 1982, 2000 and 2006. The 1st two times, I was a small kid, so I loved it. In 2000, I was on honeymoon and there were a lot of new (or attractions I had not tried for a long time) things that we enjoyed, but not as much as DLP or DL. In 2006, I was angry, frustrated and sadened by the place. And yes, a little bored (I was keen to get to the other parks). Yet I have been to DL over 300 times between 1974 and 2007. And DLP 50+ times since 1992, most of the trips in the last 10 years. They definately have had their ups and downs, and I am not bored of either (well, I hardly step foot in the shops anymore because there is little of interest in them, whereas the theme shopping used to be an attraction at those parks too). I always look forward to going back, and long to do so. I cannot say this of the MK. It could be so much more, and so much easier.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>I think that Disney has forgotten that it is the sum of the parts that make the experience special. It's not that anyone was rushing to the Magic Shop to buy something but the fact that it was made the park special. You know Disney made no money on the Penny Arcade but you could really spend a penny and see a "picture" show. The Diamond Horseshoe had a low capacity and it was probably cost heavy but it was something different that you couldn't do anywhere else. It may be easier to buy lots of hamburger patties to serve throughout the park but it shows a complete lack of imagination in a place that is about imagination.<<< This is sooooo true. It is the little things that make the magic. A phone in MSUSA where you can listen in on a party line from the turn of the century, a place to play checkers in a Market House, shops that are worthy of exploring because they have different things in them. Artisans and themed performers. All of these things means you can pay a lot of money, not go on a single ride (I will call them that rather than attractions to highlight the issue) and come away satisfied because you had a great no where else to be found experience. Now is it the fast passes, the pay one price policy (rather than ticket books and making the park itself seem more attractive), the bulk commissioning of merchandise to maximise profit, the idiocracy of the typical guest in today's society, the limited number of Disney management that "get it"? I suspect all of the above. But I know it breaks my heart that my children will never know the Disney I obsessed about for over 30 years, and my mother and family elders before me.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>All four saloon shows are essentially pay-per-view - they are all lunch/dinner shows with cover charges. OLC don't make a dime in profit on those shows - they simply cover their costs.<<< But at least the option is there in TDL. Now DL still has a good option in that the Billy's are a part of admission (though I prefer the Revue show itself). and TDL offers different shows and food (with a Polynesian alternative like the Tahitian Terrace I miss so much from Disneyland). DLP annoys me greatly as the Genie comes to your table as you eat 3rd rate tex mex - there may or may not be a small band on when you go (character meet and greets in the Lucky Nugget is a travesty to me). But the biggest travesty is the Diamond Horseshoe lying dormant. Maybe it is because a lot of my visits in childhood were elders in the family and many of them were pro musicians that liked to check out the talent in DL, but to me these little shows are a big part of the Disney difference. And yes, in 2006, I was appalled in Adventureland. Now AL circa 1979 was actually better in WDW than DL (provided you got a good Jungle Cruise skipper). Ok PotC, always was inferior to DL's, but not the building and Mercado. Now it feels like a flea market. There are no areas to just chill out and relax. Is that the little bit of soul being robbed from the MK or the view that DAK can now (and does) take up this mantle?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>MK is the cash cow - it is the driving force behind WDW and the most profitable engine of the resort. It feeds the development at the rest of the resort - the problem is that nothing gets fed back to the cash cow. And any students of business management will tell you that there are few cash cows that remain cash cows if they aren't properly maintained.<<< Yep, and that is why none of my cash is going there anymore. It's a shame, I like Epcot and DAK, but not enough. But is refreshing to see you write that Lee. a few years ago you used to defend that position on that boards. Now that I read you writing such things, I have a small glimour of hope that TWC could change behaviours.
Originally Posted By leemac <<But is refreshing to see you write that Lee. a few years ago you used to defend that position on that boards. >> Don't get me wrong - I do still agree with using MK's cashflows to develop the rest of the World - the problem is that it is being used for inventory build-out rather than theme park development. However that is no excuse for a lack of maintenance or custodial services. MK has hardly been ignored in the attraction stakes - it just hasn't had an E-ticket in a generation and the quality of the remaining additions hasn't been great. Magic Carpets was the wrong attraction in the wrong place, Stitch's Great Escape! and Monsters, Inc. Laugh Floor are poorly conceived and executed attractions and decisions like bulldozing Galazy Palace and building a new inferior staging area in the middle of TL are just incredulous. Add in other missteps like Cinderellabration and I'm beginning to think that MK is cursed. Ultimately I have no involvement in MK at all - it is just a waste of time as no-one in management is keen to spend money there. They point to the attendance numbers and ask "if it ain't broke don't fix it". It is a fine balancing act but MK is getting nothing out of the existing Five Year Plan. Nada.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Oh dear. Agreed. Although Philharmagic is not to my taste, it was a net gain and very popular. that was probably the last good addition was Phil (or in my books Splash Mountain). But even if it is not capital improvements, simply reviewing catering, retail, streetmousphere, maintanence and custodial would be good. They are potential simple and not very expensive fixes that would at least maintain quality instead of diminishing it.
Originally Posted By leemac The point is that management's STIs are based almost solely on fiscal measures. So when you are looking to reduce costs and maximise your NPM it is the low hanging fruit that gets cut first - like opening facilities later than park opening or culling casual labor in streetmosphere. Those are easy decisions to make - keep chipping away at the product.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo But if you salami slice, all you are left with is a little nob. If maximising profit through efficiency is the incentive (and given the current market climate, it is understandable), then transformation is the key. By creating the fiefdom approach for the STI's, surely that blueprint is undermining the vision of the product set? The raison d'etre for why the unit exists and it's founding principals?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo As for staggered opening, it really diminished our enjoyment at DLP the other week (especially when it came to attractions): As of last week, EMH was: Carousel Dumbo Tea Cups Peter Pan (worth it to cut out 45+ min waits) Buzz Orbitron Space Mountain Main Street Vehicles (disappeared after 10:00) Then most attractions opened at 10 with the exception of: Snow White (11 am open) Storybookland was closed in the week Labrynth 11:30 - 3:30 Train from frontierland, fantasyland and Discoveryland 12:30 onwards Indy 12:30 Phantom Manor 11:00 Steamboats (closed at 5) Indy opened at 12:30 autopia 11:30 Star Tours closed at 6 Honey I shrunk the audience 5 Nautilus was open 12:30 - 2:30 This was on a day when the park closed at 7 In the studios, everything was open all day except for the show times as posted, and the Animation Academy closed earlier than the rest of the park. There were no warnings until you got to the rides themselves with the exception of the trains (on the map) and the Discoveryland attraction closure times were posted at the entrance of the land (after the attractions closed). It was so annoying, I am considering writing a complaint to the park (though I dare say it will not make a difference). My MIL was disappointed to miss out on HISTA (she doesn't get to the parks often). I've not heard the end of it since getting back (I only found out about HISTA's staggered times on our last day).
Originally Posted By leemac <<fiefdom approach for the STI's>> I'm not sure what you mean by this approach. If you are implying that individual Park Ops VPs are remunerated based on the performance of their parks then that isn't the case. All management is compensated based on the performance of the segment as a whole - previously WDW Co. and now WDP&R US.
