Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I meant that in all organisations, majority of managers look after number one rather than the collective good. I hate it, but it is more often true than not. If it means staggered opening hours are employed to ensure one P&L is saving, it actually worries me somewhat. It should be the overall collective that matters. Walt Disney used to have a philosophy that unless it was being maintained, it should be open the same hours as the park (ok, DL used to close 2 days a week back then too). It is an expectation that even non fan bois have, and I don't think it is unreasonable. There are policies being persued that blatently diminish the quality of the product. It makes it harder and harder for the casual visitor to discern the Disney difference (except maybe the character licences, and even then they get confused). The average joe is likely to question their value for money even more. And those of us who are dedicated long time supporters, find the support harder and harder to justify. therefore it concerns me as a shareholder (though they have not been a good financial investment for a long time) and a devotee, that the long term damage will be so great, that we may hit a point of no return. Hyperbole, probably, but I think you can see where I am coming from. It is those things that make the travel times, or the saving and sacrifice to go, less and less worth while.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>> First, it's a cultural thing. In Japan, quality and guest service really matter ... matter a lot. You haven't had the WalMarting that has happened in the USA. The constant lowering of expectations in seemingly every facet of our lives. People are more accepting of lower quality whether they even realize it here. How many people might see an overflowing trash can and blame guests ... or see s dirty restroom and do likewise? How many people will say they don't care whether the Yeti ever works right ... whether B'rer Rabbit hops around the LP ... whether you can hear anything clearly in PoC? When fans don't even care, you have a problem. There's very little incentive to do things the old way, the right way, the Disney Way! *****************As to TDR, you have the culture of quality that the OLC adheres to ... and strangely enough you also have TWDC breathing down their necks with their own team of management who have final say on many things. I have heard people at Disney tell me that Disney enforces things on the OLC that it has long since stopped caring about in its own parks. *****************How true that is I can't say. But I don't know one person who has visited TDR that hasn't said the place out-Disney's Disney's own resorts.<< OK, in that sense then...Why not bring that kind of thought over here? If it works there, why not here? Getting a better product is something everyone can enjoy.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Spirit - to me the question that you pose suggests the MK had a soul in the first place. I can't speak for the '70s as my first visit was in '81 but MK has always been just a themed mass-market theme park to me. All of the quirks and nuances that make DL such a densely themed experience are lacking in MK. Virtually every architectural decision (except for the castle) led to an inferior product but it was designed to handle significantly larger crowds. The wide walkways of both MK and TDL destroy any sense of true immersion that might yield discovery or wonder. So I'd argue that MK never had a soul in the first place. It was my first introduction to Disney theme parks but it was EPCOT Center that changed the way my family spent their vacation time. MK has always been the last choice for my vacation time - even D-MGM is above it.<<< I'm sorry, I have to disagree. MK had a spirit. It's always been the heart of the Disney experience and WDW. I know it's less than Disneyland ( is everyone comparing it to DL? Is that why you ll think it's dull? ) but it was never supposed to be. It was going to be Walt's stepping stone to E.P.C.O.T. The City. He needed SOME sort of park to bridge his business there. How odd it would have been if Walt Disney would have bought land for a huge city...but no theme park? It wouldn't of worked. I think the MK is fair trade off. Especially back then, when it was different and more unique from DL. Hope I'm not forsaking my Fanboy license for a DOM one, but....
Originally Posted By HMButler79 Ugh, i can't beliieve we are beating this dead horse again! As much as i LOVE Sprits amd leemacs dead on posts, MK is a lost cause. Its a crumbling ruin, the Norma Desmond of MKs and probably all Disney Parks. And the shark jump occured nearly 20years ago. You see, MK first put on the water skis when The Walt Disney Story closed on Main Street. To close the ONE attraction about the companys founder in the resort that was his last dream was the first signal something was seriosuly wrong behind the scenes. Then the boat accelrated during Al Weiss' all shops most sell the same crap phase which coincided w/ the Castle Cake. A dubious deciciosn that cemented the idea that WDWs manamgemnt was "not all there". Then the MK jumped over the shark. And what a jump. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride closed as the defining moment, the high water mark. This PROVED, that local management and Burbank did not care about the fans (at least until the 50th). It was the end of ANYTHING subversive and unique in the MK and the beginning of out of control synergy. This had been preceded by the closing of the original Snow White. After Toad came Tikis UNM, an autobiography on WDI if there ever was one and you could see where we were headed. The final blow was when Alien closed and you didnt need Madame Leota to see that management though the MK was a park for 4-12yo girls. Add to this the said malling of MS, the destruction of AL, the aging dark ride interiors, Poohs Craptacular, the destrcution of TL, unisex costumes, ODV explosion worthy of Paul and Cynthia, overuse of FP and strollers and MK jumped the in the sharks mouth long ago and was reguritated. When TDLFAN says HKDL is better than MK, that says it all.
Originally Posted By HMButler79 and get this gem kids, theres gonna be even more complaining cause according to Reedy Creek Filing., the Space Mt. rehab is costing a whopping.....get this......wait for it............ TWELVE.THREE MILLION. Thats it kids! $12Million on an Eticket from 1974! And this is from the company that spent $50 mill on a 38year old Mansion 2 years ago.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo HMButler79 - you rarely post these days, but when you do, it is certainly worth reading.
Originally Posted By HMButler79 and i must also mention, ever since the 50th, CMs and guests alike have been discovering the joys of DL and for 5 years ive heard something i thought id never here from WDW CMs. "Why cant we have that here"? People are noticing. There are CMs that are ECSTATIC over Summer Nightnastic and if you think this stuff isnt making it from CMs mouths to guests ears, you are dead wrong.
Originally Posted By barboy 12.3 million---- you can't even bulldoze, haul away, dispose the debris and plan for the rebuild for that amount. NOT GOOD! 100 million is a solid round threshold figure for the E's, I say.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo 12 mil is a drop in the ocean!!!! Sounds like this is purely to make it safe.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer I'm quite surprised at this...I still feel that Nostalgia gives the MK an edge. Same with EPCOT. However...MGM? Now there's a park that lost it's heart a long, long time ago. =-(
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper Well, hello everybody. First off, I'm just going to say that my last trip gave me a sliver of hope for the MK. Buildings were getting TLC left and right, and some of the rides looked better than I have ver seen them, including the JC, which looks the best it has since I've started working there. <<and i must also mention, ever since the 50th, CMs and guests alike have been discovering the joys of DL and for 5 years ive heard something i thought id never here from WDW CMs. "Why cant we have that here"? People are noticing. There are CMs that are ECSTATIC over Summer Nightnastic and if you think this stuff isnt making it from CMs mouths to guests ears, you are dead wrong.>> I 100% agree with you. "They do it that way in Disneyland." is like a new CM battle cry. We know what's right and the way things should be done, and we need to keep pressuring it onto the people who can make changes.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>However...MGM? Now there's a park that lost it's heart a long, long time ago.<< *sniff* I find it painful to even walk through this park. Back in the day it was my second favorite of ALL Disney theme parks. Today I can hardly bear to stay long enough to experience the creaking remnants of the Great Movie Ride. It's like watching a Sinatra concert just before the end. You basically went to remind yourself of what a great performer he once was...
Originally Posted By DlandDug Many here have pointed out (quite rightly, I agree) that it is the CMs and the experiences they create who hold the soul of a Disney theme park. I would also argue that guests are an important part of the equation. We know that the guest mix of the DLR and WDW is radically different. Sadly, this was completely disregarded through the 1990s. The Disney Decade (ironically announced at the Disneyland Hotel) was a bonanza for WDW. New attractions, new parks, and a whole attitude that was very well suited for the tourist trade that flocked to Florida. The same treatment in California, however, was a disaster. The cranky locals (and I'm one of 'em) HATED most of the new stuff that was being imposed on their hometown pride and joy. So while the MK's Main Street became a Mall in one fell swoop, just the introduction of plush mountain in the original Crystal Arcade brought a storm of protest. When Disneyland's Emporium was scraped bare to the walls and turned into a lightly themed Wal-mart, sales actually went down! The Imagineers had to scramble to return some ambience to the scientifically designed interior, as it was "discovered" that the SoCal buyers liked to linger, rather than power shop during the lulls between parades. Just as the MK "jumped the shark" with the replacement of Toad with Pooh, so DL's MSUSA failed to jump when it was announced (with great fanfare) that the Muppets would be proudly taking up residence in the Opera House. That blunder was greeted with another storm of protest, this time gleefully picked up by a sympathetic local press. And ever after, it seemed as though Walt's original magic kingdom was punished by the powers-that-were. Buildings rotted, attractions closed, and budget was enthusiatically turned to the shiny, new, wonder park being built out in the parking lot. Some of us really began to believe that Disneyland was being purposely allowed to deteriorate, just to make the new park look that much better. Meanwhile, over in Orlando, there was so much new and genuinely exciting going on that people began to really put down Disneyland. It was old. It was tired. Its time had passed. The real profits were all coming out of WDW, and that's the way it would always be. It was only when cooler heads realized what a massive, massive world of hurt was heading to town with the skimpy proposals for Disneyland's 50th that the tide began to turn. Having said all that, I do believe that things will change again. The MK has too much good will invested to ever truly be lost. But it will take a lot to bring it to a level where the idea that it has no soul seems odd.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Time for the great Disney Apologist to check in. First of all, I don't know that any theme park has soul. That comes from the guest. My wife, son, daughter and I first saw the MK in 1991. Maybe not the "glory days", but pretty close to it. I came away absolutely enchanted with the place. My wife and daughter liked it well enough but certainly were not enchanted. My son disliked the place, said he had no desire to ever return and never has. All of us saw the SAME PARK and had totally different reaction. Soul comes from the guest, not the park. When did my wife and daughter start to love the place? When we stayed on site. It was just the All Star Music, but staying on-site gave us a totally different experience from what we had the first time. We loved it all. Although we were initially disappointed with the small room size, over the course of our vacation we liked everything else so much we no longer cared. We loved the food court. We loved the bus transportation. We even enjoyed the over-the-top themeing. Say what you will, you know for absolute sure that you are in WDW when you stay at an All-Star. The on-site experience helped my wife and daughter become big fans of the MK. The lines and heat become much more tolerable when you knew you could head back to the hotel easily. And you didn't mind heading back to the hotel that much because you would STILL be at Disney World! This allowed a much more relaxed approach to the parks... one where you really could take the time to stop and enjoy the atmosphere. Did the MK suddenly acquire soul or did we?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I agree that Disneyland Park is the better park. What makes it better? It sure as heck isn't the crummy narrow walkways. I HATE the narrow walkways. They irritate the heck out of me every single visit. As the crowds start gathering for Fantasmic there is absolutely no way to get anywhere around the Rivers of America. It is hot, claustrophobic and definitely NOT a magic moment. New Orleans Square offers challenges of it's own. Sure, it is a charming place. It is also frustrating. I’ve NEVER exited Pirates without getting totally lost. No, what makes DL the superior park for me is superior attractions. They have Indy, Matterhorn, Alice, Pinocchio, and Toad. Their Space Mountain, Buzz, Pirates and Small World are all significantly better. It is the ATTRACTIONS that make DL better; not the crummy cow paths.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip On to the MK complaint list. I just don't see the drama/trauma over Main Street changes like the elimination of the theater where a cartoon loop was shown and the arcade. Were they kind of neat? I guess so. We spent about 5 minutes in each on our first visit and thought they were a nice touch. On the other hand, did we like them enough that we ever stopped back on subsequent trips while they were still there? No, we did not. For me it is the architecture of Main Street that provides its soul. The buildings could be empty and they would still do the job of setting the stage. The thrill is still there as far as I'm concerned. You come out of the tunnel to Town Square, see the Victorian architecture, the crowds of people on Main Street and the castle gleaming at the far end and if you are human at all you have to fight back tears. We always start by going up to the train platform and catching a train for a tour around the park. The announcement of the train entering the station always sends a chill up my spine. Once the train is underway and the wonderfully hokey "old west" spiel starts the "only at Disney World" feeling starts to settle in. No soul? No way.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I agree about the boringization of MK shopping. The only stores of any interest now are the Yankee Trader, Sir Mickey's and the Agrabah Bazaar. I know; the Bazaar got trashed in this thread for not being air-conditioned. I don't care... it still offers unique stuff. Beside, I usually visit in January. The other stores I pretty much ignore. You can find the exact same stuff at the World of Disney, and at the World of Disney you can get an AP or DVC discount. The change in retail is not entirely a bad thing. I spend much less money at the MK and have more time for attractions.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer *sniff* >>I find it painful to even walk through this park. Back in the day it was my second favorite of ALL Disney theme parks. Today I can hardly bear to stay long enough to experience the creaking remnants of the Great Movie Ride. It's like watching a Sinatra concert just before the end. You basically went to remind yourself of what a great performer he once was...<< That's how I feel about most of the parks. Sad... >>> On to the MK complaint list. I just don't see the drama/trauma over Main Street changes like the elimination of the theater where a cartoon loop was shown and the arcade. Were they kind of neat? I guess so. We spent about 5 minutes in each on our first visit and thought they were a nice touch. On the other hand, did we like them enough that we ever stopped back on subsequent trips while they were still there? No, we did not. For me it is the architecture of Main Street that provides its soul. The buildings could be empty and they would still do the job of setting the stage. The thrill is still there as far as I'm concerned. You come out of the tunnel to Town Square, see the Victorian architecture, the crowds of people on Main Street and the castle gleaming at the far end and if you are human at all you have to fight back tears. We always start by going up to the train platform and catching a train for a tour around the park. The announcement of the train entering the station always sends a chill up my spine. Once the train is underway and the wonderfully hokey "old west" spiel starts the "only at Disney World" feeling starts to settle in. No soul? No way.<<< Agreed in full. The "Only in Disney World" thought runs through my head frequently.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Billy Hill and the Hillbillies are still holding forth at Walt's beloved Golden Horseshoe. And packing them in, day after day, show after show. You can buy a full meal, a cold drink, or an honest-to-goodness ice cream sundae, pull up a chair in Walt's old box seat (better get there an hour early, though) and listen to some good music and corny jokes.>> So true. ... And they do put on a heck of a show. I had forgotten about them in a way since I know they've often been at the BBQ ... and they still aren't a replacement for the original show as good as they are (and they are!) <<So... sorry about the Diamond Horseshoe. I've never been inside-- it's never been open when I was in Florida...>> It was wonderful. I remember when folks would rush to make day-of reservations at MK opening instead of mad dashes for FastPasses. One of my fondest memories was having Easter 'brunch' at the DH in 1985 after the parade. Foamhead meet-greet-and-gropes don't count as entertainment for people like me ... but I am an elitist snob that has spent countless days in Disney parks and resorts worldwide and has countless photos and if you can find more than 2-3 of me and Mickey in 35 years of visits then you took 'em!
