Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<All four saloon shows are essentially pay-per-view - they are all lunch/dinner shows with cover charges. OLC don't make a dime in profit on those shows - they simply cover their costs.>> And haven't they brought foamheads into the TDL shows? Or are some of them still sans characters? DL and MK never charged anything, but meals weren't included ... if you wanted a sandwich or popcorn or ice cream, you bought it. If you didn't, then it was part of your admission.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Spirit - to me the question that you pose suggests the MK had a soul in the first place. I can't speak for the '70s as my first visit was in '81 but MK has always been just a themed mass-market theme park to me. All of the quirks and nuances that make DL such a densely themed experience are lacking in MK. Virtually every architectural decision (except for the castle) led to an inferior product but it was designed to handle significantly larger crowds. The wide walkways of both MK and TDL destroy any sense of true immersion that might yield discovery or wonder.>> I think you can have wide walkways and still ooze theme ... story ... sense of place in spades. DAK does that very well. EPCOT does too, albeit in a different manner. DLP surely does. TDS too! To me ... and hence the purpose of the thread ... MK was able to mix charm, details and larger scale for 20-25 years. There were places you could get lose yourself in. Not so much now. The charm is gone ... whether it's not being able to get fried chicken (or a veggie wrap for you!) and a root beer at Aunt Polly's while watching keelboats, canoes AND a sternwheeler go by ... or not being able to play games at the Penny Arcade ... or see a stage show ... or a fife and drum corps in Liberty Square etc ... The details were there. And Disney has accountaineered them right out of the equation. I get bored at the MK. I don't get bored at DL or DLP. And I ran out of time before I ran out of things to do in my visit to HKDL. ... So something's amiss. To me, it feels like they literally sucked all the real magic from the MK ... and it's the cast and guests who are trying to push it back in. <<So I'd argue that MK never had a soul in the first place.>> And I'd disagree, but I do see exactly where you are coming from ... and I am glad you're chiming in here. <<It was my first introduction to Disney theme parks but it was EPCOT Center that changed the way my family spent their vacation time.>> Same here ... <<MK has always been the last choice for my vacation time - even D-MGM is above it.>> I can't say that. I can say that for me in the 21st century a WDW visit is always going to be EPCOT, DAK, resorts/dining, and a few favorites at MK ... and then maybe TPFKaTD-MGMS (although YOUR attraction along with TSMM have given me new reasons to actually go there!) For me the Studios are a muddled mess ... I suppose I could do a similar thread for that park ... and even EPCOT sadly. But when I see that giant hat/pinshack, it just drives home the fact somewhere in the 1990s Disney lost its way and it hasn't found it yet. But MK will never be a driver of a WDW trip for me. In reality, I think the last time it was may have been when 'New Tomorrowland' debutted. I won't plan trips around the crap they've debutted in MK over the past decade. <<It is ironic that MK has become a victim of its own success.>> I'd argue it's a victim of how it is run because of its success. The place was hugely successful for 25 years, but wasn't the bland, homogenized, lower quality experience it has been since they whored the castle in pepto-pink paint for two years. <<The park is significantly undercapacity at the moment in terms of attractions (north of 10k per hour at the moment on WDP&R's metrics) and there are areas that need refurbishment but the uniqueness of the guest mix (over 95% are tourists which is over 200 bps higher than any other Disney resort) means it is difficult to take attractions out of action for a considerable length of time.>> Well, it is difficult because all TDO has done is close attractions or replace them with ones less popular than what was there or put playgrounds on top of them ... and I am curious where you get the 95% tourist figure (and what it means) ... I am guessing you just mean outside of the immediate central Fla four-county area? <<I don't agree with that statement - but it is a reality that WDW has to grapple with. MK is the cash cow - it is the driving force behind WDW and the most profitable engine of the resort. It feeds the development at the rest of the resort - the problem is that nothing gets fed back to the cash cow. And any students of business management will tell you that there are few cash cows that remain cash cows if they aren't properly maintained.>> It's nice to hear someone else -- who has a clue -- saying the same thing I've been saying since the late 90s. It amazes me that the 40th is coming up and there are all sorts of proposals and it appears that absolutely nothing will be done. Do these people not get anything about their product?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >>>I will say that I have never felt any sense of "magic" in the Magic Kingdom. Don't get me wrong. I like it just fine. But it has always felt very generic and plastic to me. It feels like just a bigger version of something that is a little more special.<<< <<This is encouraging to hear Dug. I wondered if it was growing up at Disneyland that did this to me (though I don't have that problem at DLP either).>> I don't think that's it, although I can't be certain because I grew up with MK and then EC ... and didn't set foot in DL until WDW was already a three-gate resort with thousands of hotels being built. That said ... I went to DL in 1990 for the first time ... and while it blew me away, it also didn't 'ruin' the MK for me except for PoC ... and Splash Mountain, which was already on the way!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Now it feels like a flea market. There are no areas to just chill out and relax.>> Of course there are ... like you can sit on a bench while your kids run around the McPooh Playground (it's so small that it will only take 2-3 minutes) and while sitting there ... watching those little angels you can munch on some popcorn (peanuts aren't allowed because apparently in the 1990s folks started dying of peanut allergies ... I must have missed all the deaths before being an ignorant elitist snob!) and while munching you can dream of creating some kind of entertainment venture where children and parents can have fun together. Trust me. The idea is can't miss! <<Is that the little bit of soul being robbed from the MK or the view that DAK can now (and does) take up this mantle?>> DAK can and does ooze soul (I say it's because Joe scares people at Disney, myself!) ... but one could already argue that it lost some when the Discovery River Boats were neutered, then painted pastels and then removed ... and when DinoRama was tossed in. Still, it's the only park that strongly seems to hold onto its mission ... its purpose ... just imagine what DAK would have been if Joe and his team had been given another $500 million!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Don't get me wrong - I do still agree with using MK's cashflows to develop the rest of the World - the problem is that it is being used for inventory build-out rather than theme park development. >> So ... you wanna tell us when the Poly and GF get their DVC components?!? <<However that is no excuse for a lack of maintenance or custodial services.>> No. But MK is falling apart. And this is nothing new. I am sure everyone at TDO recalls the 'This Old Park' story that was in the O-Sentinel in 2004 detailing how dire some things were getting. I know people are talking about all the facade work being done at MK and touting it as a big deal. I honestly think some of those buildings are dealing with major wood rot (possibly termites) and structural issues that can't be put off any longer. And to look at the doorframes and posts on Main Street where you can tell they just painted over decaying wood is just pathetic. Fountains that haven't worked in years too. And custodial? Well, the park looks fine until you get maybe 25,000-30,000 in there and then it's like a disaster ... it has been years since I had a sweeper walk thru the queue while I was in one at MK (routinely it happens at DL and it happened in HK too!) <<MK has hardly been ignored in the attraction stakes - it just hasn't had an E-ticket in a generation and the quality of the remaining additions hasn't been great. Magic Carpets was the wrong attraction in the wrong place, Stitch's Great Escape! and Monsters, Inc. Laugh Floor are poorly conceived and executed attractions and decisions like bulldozing Galazy Palace and building a new inferior staging area in the middle of TL are just incredulous. Add in other missteps like Cinderellabration and I'm beginning to think that MK is cursed.>> Maybe it isn't the place, but the people making the creative and financial and day-to-day decisions? Isn't it time for some new blood? Why does WDP&R recycle execs like baseball teams recycle managers? <<Ultimately I have no involvement in MK at all - it is just a waste of time as no-one in management is keen to spend money there. They point to the attendance numbers and ask "if it ain't broke don't fix it". It is a fine balancing act but MK is getting nothing out of the existing Five Year Plan. Nada.>> Well, you are the first 'insider' I know to publically state that the MK will have nothing new for its 40th and will be just as stale in 2012 or 2014 as it is now, as it was two years ago ... or six years ago etc ... John Lasseter really needs a stronger powerbase at the company. He does get it and I can't believe a stale MK is something he wants. (I don't think Jay and Bob could care less, so long as the cash keeps flowing!) ... I'll help him out by (finally) seeing UP tonight!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<OK, in that sense then...Why not bring that kind of thought over here? If it works there, why not here? Getting a better product is something everyone can enjoy.>> Because you have to pay for quality. TWDC believes there is no reason to spend money on the world's No. 1 theme park. <<I'm sorry, I have to disagree. MK had a spirit. It's always been the heart of the Disney experience and WDW. I know it's less than Disneyland ( is everyone comparing it to DL? Is that why you ll think it's dull? ) but it was never supposed to be. It was going to be Walt's stepping stone to E.P.C.O.T. The City. He needed SOME sort of park to bridge his business there. How odd it would have been if Walt Disney would have bought land for a huge city...but no theme park? It wouldn't of worked. I think the MK is fair trade off. Especially back then, when it was different and more unique from DL. Hope I'm not forsaking my Fanboy license for a DOM one, but....>> Go out and see the world ... and the Disney parks around it. Spend some time in Anaheim first. Then come back here ... but first you'll have to clean yourself up.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Ugh, i can't beliieve we are beating this dead horse again! As much as i LOVE Sprits amd leemacs dead on posts, MK is a lost cause. Its a crumbling ruin, the Norma Desmond of MKs and probably all Disney Parks. And the shark jump occured nearly 20years ago.>> Hey ... some of us are bored. And this tired act is sadly just as timely now as it was in 2007 or 2004 or 2001 or 1998 etc ... and I believe the shark was jumped in 1996 for WDW as a whole (despite DAK opening in '98) ... the place was too big by 96, the cutbacks and changes in operating style had started ... it's all been a downward spiral to today. But hey, new HoP opening soon! <<You see, MK first put on the water skis when The Walt Disney Story closed on Main Street. To close the ONE attraction about the companys founder in the resort that was his last dream was the first signal something was seriosuly wrong behind the scenes.>> Absolutely. Although I can tell you the PR response is that One Man's Dream (what was supposed to be a temp exhibit for 100 Years of Walt) serves the same purpose. <<Then the boat accelrated during Al Weiss' all shops most sell the same crap phase which coincided w/ the Castle Cake. A dubious deciciosn that cemented the idea that WDWs manamgemnt was "not all there". >> it wasn't an Al-mandate so much as a company-wide decision. ... there could no longer be loss-leaders that were there for show as much as selling things ... MK (and merchandising as a whole) shops had to meet specific profit levels or they got cut ... And obviously doing things the WalMart way work, right? <<Then the MK jumped over the shark. And what a jump. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride closed as the defining moment, the high water mark. This PROVED, that local management and Burbank did not care about the fans (at least until the 50th). It was the end of ANYTHING subversive and unique in the MK and the beginning of out of control synergy. This had been preceded by the closing of the original Snow White. After Toad came Tikis UNM, an autobiography on WDI if there ever was one and you could see where we were headed. The final blow was when Alien closed and you didnt need Madame Leota to see that management though the MK was a park for 4-12yo girls. Add to this the said malling of MS, the destruction of AL, the aging dark ride interiors, Poohs Craptacular, the destrcution of TL, unisex costumes, ODV explosion worthy of Paul and Cynthia, overuse of FP and strollers and MK jumped the in the sharks mouth long ago and was reguritated.>> Wow! That's a mouthful ... but I don't agree Toad was some pinnacle any more than I agree Horizons was at EPCOT or AC at PI etc ... On its face, Pooh replacing Toad made sense on many levels ... sadly, I probably would have done likewise. Losing CBJ for it at DL was a much bigger disaster and sign they were clueless. But I do agree with most of what you said. <<When TDLFAN says HKDL is better than MK, that says it all.>> I don't know that it's better ... or even that he's said it's better overall. But I do know if you gave me a choice as to which park I could visit tomorrow I'd take HKDL (but the newness factor is still strong). The one thing that HKDL has over the MK is it gets almost all of the Disney basics down ... from being near spotless to having lots of quality entertainment to having plenty of little Disney Details to having great CMs across the board. ... But it is still lacking a lot, not the least of which is a severe absence of major, signature Disney attractions. Add 4-5 of them and boy HKDL is gonna be one sweet park.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<12.3 million---- you can't even bulldoze, haul away, dispose the debris and plan for the rebuild for that amount. NOT GOOD!>> If true, then even this Spirit would be shocked. That's the kind of money Bob Iger finds in his sofa cushions.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 <<Great series RT. KKIII-Disney in Shadows will be out Sept. 15th.>> Thanks for that bit of news,
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 <<I always visited the Magic Shop on Main Street (and the other one in Fantasyland that no one seems to recall>> Merlin's Magic Shoppe?
Originally Posted By DAR Let me just address the CM issue. In my ten trips down and especially the last six since I've been old enough to recognize it. I have never once had a CM that was nothing less than pleasant and helpful.
Originally Posted By hopemax Did you have anything out of the ordinary happen? That's when we have the most problems. For example, before working at WDW, my Mom was a manager at a Disney store and thus had a Silver Pass, which entitled her and my Dad to a 35% merchandise discount, among other things. We had at least a dozen WDW CM's who didn't know 1. What it was or 2. What to do with it. One year they made the WDW CM ID's scanable to verify eligibilty, but DS ID's weren't. If you had a DS ID, they had to enter the SSN manually. On day 4 of watching the procedure repeated, my Mom mentioned it to a CM at a cart in Epcot. The CM started screaming, and I mean screaming, "Don't tell me how to do my JOB, I don't go where you work and tell you how to do your job." It took 20 minutes for her to figure out that she needed to enter the SSN. We went directly to Guest Services after that one. Another time, the CM told my Dad he was not eligible for a discount, and refused to go get a manager when he asked for one because, "He (the CM) would get in trouble for making the manager come out when my Dad wasn't eligible. Of course, my Dad held his ground, the manager did come out, the CM was reprimanded in front of us ,and other guests for not knowing that my Dad WAS eligible and how to ring him up. That was in the early 2000s though. The most recent problems involve merchandise. Which really ticks my Mom off because that's where she works. Twice we have gone into the shop now in the MS Cinema with the intention of buying a book. When we looked at the shelf, the one would have a torn up cover and ripped pages. When we asked the CM if they had one in better condition in the back, they just looked at us like we were morons and only offered us that one. When asked if there was another shop that might carry the book, "I don't know." My Dad purchased an Olzewski piece and the CM tried to take the display piece and give it to him. That took 15 minutes to get another CM to come out and they knew immediately where in the back to go get the boxed pieces. Also, the way CM's want to throw a ceramic/easily breakable item into a bag with nothing else. And when you ask if they have additional wrapping, roll their eyes because they have to turn around, open a cabinet and pull out something. I can't even count the number of times I have disturbed CM's from their conversations because I wanted to actually purchase something. Or with waitresses who purposely look the other way when walking by your table than notice that they have forgotten to bring back your beverage after they took it to refill it. And it has been my experience that once a restaurant CM has realized they made a mistake, they slack off even more. It's like they figure they already lost that tip, why devote anymore time to the table. But even those CM's (except the screamer) were smiley, bubbly, and full of what you would call the Disney spirit. Even though they were not delivering competent service.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 "Yeah. That's a serious question. One I have been thinking about this morning as I debate my next visit, WDW and life in general." While I absolutely agree MK has lost a step or so with time... the bigger picture is so has everything else. I think we may look back one day and realize we lived in a period of time where things were pretty darn good ( at least economically) which made a lot of other things possible. I don't know that we are going to see that again... So where as I agree MK has lost a step magically, it also takes much more to wow us- because everyday life is dragging on our souls also. ( See I couldn't say souls in W/E without an attack... Whether you are an Obama supporter or not I don't care as long as those who are admit that for many of us the increasing tax burdens are cutting at all of us. Here in Illinois the governor is going to pass a 67% increase in state income tax from 3% to 5% - equating to a 2% cut in pay. At the same time they are passing 39 new taxes on services - taxing them like commodities - most of which everyone uses . We already pay the highest sales tax in the country at 10.5% and have the highest electric and gasoline rates - we passed $3/gallon again now long before everyone. What it has done is put burdens on those trying to hang onto homes that have depreciated 25% in the last 2 years. Again, this is not a political statement because maybe this is all necessary to dig ourselves out - but let's acknowlege the daily impact on families... So to that end I am still hoping my job allows me to travel to WDW with my family in August. Have had 4 days off in 18 months where I have not worked at least part of that day - but hanging onto my job is far more important than anything else I can do. So while I am definitely in the realist camp when it comes to what WDW was and is...it is still a special place.... So I am with you Spirit, I think while WDW mgmt has surely had an impact on the end product - the overall world scenario has also taken it's toll on WDW and each of us.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost OMG, I just realized while reading through this stuff just how ridged some folk are. If Walt had had the same "nothing should ever change" attitude that is prevalent here, we would still be watching Mickey steering a boat and whistling. Who cares about the shops. I have never gone to Disney to buy something. I went to experience something. Frankly, they could have those buildings filled with Styrofoam bubbles, I wouldn't even know...I hardly ever go in there. The castle comically transformed into a cake on the 25th was great. It wasn't meant to be permanent and it was so Disneyish it was incredible. You folks do realize that Cinderella doesn't actually live in there don't you? The parks never have lost there soul because they never had one. It's the eye of the beholder that either has the soul or doesn't. If you can no longer look at things with childlike wonder, if you can no longer look at things without searching for the flaws then, the soul is indeed gone...but it's your own. Everyone has different reference points. My worst memories of a shoddy, smelly, rancid ketchup MK was in the early 90's. That's the same time that others remember it as being at its best. It's all within us my friends...it's all within us. Someone said, you can really tell how bad it is when there are about 30,000 people in there, then it is a mess. No kidding! Really? You don't think all those slobs didn't have something to do with it do you. You don't really believe that there can be enough custodial around to constantly follow behind each guest and pick up after there sorry butts, do you? Call me an apologist if you like, doesn't matter to me. I like to think of myself as a realist though. I like to think that Disney is a really nice place that is run by humans, for humans and like humans have character flaws that make it have it's individual personality. It cannot be everything to everybody...it just can't.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >>However...MGM? Now there's a park that lost it's heart a long, long time ago.<< <<*sniff* I find it painful to even walk through this park. Back in the day it was my second favorite of ALL Disney theme parks. Today I can hardly bear to stay long enough to experience the creaking remnants of the Great Movie Ride. It's like watching a Sinatra concert just before the end. You basically went to remind yourself of what a great performer he once was...>> Great analogy. And as someone who was at Disney-MGM on Day 1 and loved it for years, I know exactly what you mean. The park is a muddled mess ... and I am not sure anyone at Disney has any clear vision for its future at all.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Time for the great Disney Apologist to check in.>> Mr. Roadtrip, Welcome Home!!! We have your one-bedroom villa at OKW awaiting you ... please don't mind the mold as that's just a new form of pixie dust and the villa is at a magical 78 degrees for your comfort and our bottom line. Thanks for the few hundred grand (my estimate) you and your family have dropped here over the years. Would you like to buy some points in our magical BLT (bread extra)? <<First of all, I don't know that any theme park has soul. That comes from the guest.>> Locations. Places have soul. At least special places do. The Statue of Liberty does. The Grand Canyon does. The Lincoln Monument does. ... a strip center doesn't, regardless of how many wonderful spirits spend time there. To me, Disney parks have always had soul. But I can say that two, DCA and DSP had very, very, very little to begin with. ANd others -- like MK -- seem to have lost what they had. <<My wife, son, daughter and I first saw the MK in 1991. Maybe not the "glory days", but pretty close to it. I came away absolutely enchanted with the place. My wife and daughter liked it well enough but certainly were not enchanted. My son disliked the place, said he had no desire to ever return and never has.>> I would hope you have cut him out of the will? Or at least are planning on leaving him only your Mouse ears and pin lanyards! <<I just don't see the drama/trauma over Main Street changes like the elimination of the theater where a cartoon loop was shown and the arcade. Were they kind of neat? I guess so. We spent about 5 minutes in each on our first visit and thought they were a nice touch. On the other hand, did we like them enough that we ever stopped back on subsequent trips while they were still there? No, we did not.>> Main Street not only set the stage for an MK visit by removing you from the world of today, it also has a special place because it replicated an idealized version of smalltime American towns (like Walt's beloved Marceline). When you remove all the attractions (which they pretty much have) and take away all the unique shopping (which they pretty much did) ... well, it becomes nothing worthy of spending time with. In essence, the first act has been rendered meaningless. And it doesn't matter whether it affects most guests or doesn't on a conscious level because it does cheapen the entire experience for all. <<For me it is the architecture of Main Street that provides its soul. The buildings could be empty and they would still do the job of setting the stage. The thrill is still there as far as I'm concerned.>> See, Tripster, this is the kind of statement that will usually elicit a harsh response that will make people think I detest you with every fiber of my being! I realize you're using hyperbole, but the sad fact is many people don't care whether the buildings are empty. They don't care about substance. They have bought into teh DISNEY MAGIC marketing hype and that Aswad chick has told them they need to rush down Main Street to grab FastPasses for the MK Mountain Range anyway. It's lowest common denominator all the way. And right now, Main Street is just meaningless Victorian era facades. <<You come out of the tunnel to Town Square, see the Victorian architecture, the crowds of people on Main Street and the castle gleaming at the far end and if you are human at all you have to fight back tears. >> I may have had to fight back tears while watching UP tonight (Pixar is now 10 for 10 ... let's hope Lasseter gets more parks power!) but I can't say I get teary walking down Main Street unless I start thinking about how the people running the place have ruined it ... and gotten rich while doing so! <<We always start by going up to the train platform and catching a train for a tour around the park. The announcement of the train entering the station always sends a chill up my spine. Once the train is underway and the wonderfully hokey "old west" spiel starts the "only at Disney World" feeling starts to settle in. No soul? No way.>> I knew you'd be an unconscious objector to this thread ;-)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I always visited the Magic Shop on Main Street (and the other one in Fantasyland that no one seems to recall>> <<Merlin's Magic Shoppe?>> That's it. That was the first one to go too (I believe). Oh well, they won't ever remove it in Anaheim ... the crowd out there just won't allow it. I wish Florida wasn't such a (blanking) transient state where no one (actually few) put down roots and care about the quality of life.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I can't even count the number of times I have disturbed CM's from their conversations because I wanted to actually purchase something. Or with waitresses who purposely look the other way when walking by your table than notice that they have forgotten to bring back your beverage after they took it to refill it. >> Sounds very familiar. I don't want to bash CMs. Some CMs are among my closest friends! But ... I'll say this as someone who has spent more time in WDW parks than likely 99% of the folks here ... in the past five years (just to keep things recent) it's my experience that for every 10 WDW CMs I encounter about five will be exceptional/great/magical ... three will be OK, not bad by any stretch but not memorable and the other two will be just godawful and have no business working in ANY customer service type position, let alone for WDW. ... Now, most companies would be thrilled to hear someone they view as a harsh critic give such praise of CMs as a whole. And while the numbers are positive, I'd still remind you that in one day you can have direct contact with over 100 CMs ... if you extrapolate ... well, you all can do the math. When it comes to front-line CMs, I have found those in DL, DLP and HKDL (and DCL, Vero Beach and Hilton Head for that matter) to have better. And WDW is helped greatly by CPers, IPers and happy go lucky retirees.
Originally Posted By CaptainMichael Just wanted to add my perspective as a pseudo-MK Cast Member. I drive the motor cruisers from Wilderness Lodge and Ft. Wilderness to the Magic Kingdom and work as a deckhand on the ferryboats. I think it's great that this service is still offered (I'm sure it isn't cost efficient, and it probably gives the legal team fits) It is painfully obvious though that we need more vessels to keep up with crowds. It's also painfully obvious that the TTC is in need of some serious love and attention. These things help set up the MK experience and should not be forgotten. As for the MK, it has definitely lost its soul, charm, etc. Its only redeeming factor is the Haunted Mansion. The only park I still feel the charm, the immersion, and the nostalgia at is EPCOT...there is just something magical about World Showcase and that glittering, wand-free geosphere. Great thread Spirit. I look forward to reading about Frontierland. IMO, the lands lose more and more of their souls as you make your around the MK (clockwise)...save for Liberty Square.
Originally Posted By leemac <<And haven't they brought foamheads into the TDL shows? Or are some of them still sans characters?>> Nope - rubberheads throughout. It is the TDR way - you won't find anything except for Mystic Rhythms at TDS that don't feature the characters. Guest demands drive their mandatory appearance in all shows.
