Originally Posted By leemac <<I can't say that. I can say that for me in the 21st century a WDW visit is always going to be EPCOT, DAK, resorts/dining, and a few favorites at MK ... and then maybe TPFKaTD-MGMS (although YOUR attraction along with TSMM have given me new reasons to actually go there!)>> I'm glad you are a convert! I'll always put D-MGM above MK until they drive out the live entertainment. MK has nada that interests me in terms of entertainment except for SpectroMagic and Wishes. Everything else is dire from the daytime parade to the new Stitch debacle. D-MGM still has the charm with the streetmosphere which I can happily watch all afternoon (and frequently do!) - it is exactly what should be at the park. I also like the HSM shows - full of energy that brings a good vibe to the performance corridor. B&B definitely needs replacing (and my God have we tried!) but coupled with Little Mermaid they are still entertaining shows. The problem with D-MGM will always be the lack of true vision behind the park in the early '90s - structurally it is a mess and unfortunately will never be able to change.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Yuk Lee, and people say I would love TDL. Well given I am not a fan of the MK in the 1st place, and I am not a fan of rubberheads, I do wonder.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Hmmm - at least WDW still has the barbershop quartet and ragtime pianist (unlike a certain Parisian park :-( But agreed, the entertainment at the Studios is good - the Streetmousphere, Blood Sweat and Sheers, and LMA. But I prefer the entertainment of World Showcase and DAK to anywhere (or at least before it was all cut back).
Originally Posted By leemac <<<<Then the boat accelrated during Al Weiss' all shops most sell the same crap phase which coincided w/ the Castle Cake. A dubious deciciosn that cemented the idea that WDWs manamgemnt was "not all there". >> it wasn't an Al-mandate so much as a company-wide decision. ... there could no longer be loss-leaders that were there for show as much as selling things ... MK (and merchandising as a whole) shops had to meet specific profit levels or they got cut ... And obviously doing things the WalMart way work, right?>> Actually - that particular project was driven by Al. It was to meet some aggressive targets by Burbank management but it was driven by Al. This is the problem with analysing senior management at both WDW Co. and WDP&R as it is easy to brand them all as "accountanteers" and "MBAs". The stark reality is that WDW Co is divided between those career cast members who often lack a decent education and have worked their way up the operational chain and those Harvard Business School MBAs who try to apply their theoretical learnings directly on to the resort. It is a clash of cultures and a clash of ideology. They just don't mesh. Al surrounded himself with people like him - average/sub-educated Ops people. Those folks understand how to open, run and close a park each day but they don't understand the complexity and nuances in matters like product and inventory mix, attraction menu planning and the notion of catering to all rather than to the average guest (which is the current ethos). My patience and desire to work with WDW Co. ended years ago and I have no intention of returning to central Florida until management is replaced - wholesale. The sad thing is that no-one in Jay's management structure looks beyond the bottom line - and Al has improved that immeasurably. But at what detriment to guests that don't want the "average" Disney experience?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I am very sorry to hear that Lee (but sadly not surprised by any of it). and it is why I too have little pull to WDW, whereas I do want to see the new Aquarium at Seaworld (and check out Manta, even though it is a steel monster) as well as being curious about Harry Potterland. None of it enough to pull me over (though that said, there is not really anything in the WDI that I am aware of that has me excited except the cruise ships and a the Hawaii project (maybe DC). And again, I prefer the Marriott experience to DVC and as for cruises, I am not sure given the other problems that Disney has these days, the pricetag justifies going with DCL instead of Princess or Royal Caribbean.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo You see, the management at WDW (which trickles into DLP), coupled with the whole tooning ethos means that every year, Disney is becoming more and more of just another company, instead of a way of life. Of course I love the classics (films, music, park attractions), but I can only take so many re-runs.
Originally Posted By -em >> I think it's great that this service is still offered (I'm sure it isn't cost efficient, and it probably gives the legal team fits) It is painfully obvious though that we need more vessels to keep up with crowds. It's also painfully obvious that the TTC is in need of some serious love and attention. These things help set up the MK experience and should not be forgotten.<< Agreed! I love the Bay Lake boats and would hate to see them shuttered... I also agree with the TTC- I know its a basic concept but it is the first step in the MK journey for most of the guests...
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<I also agree with the TTC- I know its a basic concept but it is the first step in the MK journey for most of the guests...>> This is a very intresting topic, I can't say I have considered this point before. I see your point em and others. In my opinion the TTC, monorail stop at EPCOT and MK are really not high up on my priority or WDW experiences. Other than fresh paint, smiling Cast Members, themed music and no liter on the ground I really have few demands. Personally I think WDW does maintaining TTC and the other monorail stops well. And certainly the Cast Members maning the WDW Transportation are some of the "lost heros" of the WDW story. The CM piloting the boat the last time I took a boat between POR resort and DTD could give any skipper on the Jungle Boat cruse a run for his money.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Just wanted to add my perspective as a pseudo-MK Cast Member. I drive the motor cruisers from Wilderness Lodge and Ft. Wilderness to the Magic Kingdom and work as a deckhand on the ferryboats. I think it's great that this service is still offered (I'm sure it isn't cost efficient, and it probably gives the legal team fits) It is painfully obvious though that we need more vessels to keep up with crowds.>> I didn't realize that's where you worked. You've likely captained my magical journeys more than once. Also, I could be wrong. But I don't believe watercraft has seen any new boats in decades. And talking about cutbacks, one of the earliest happened years ago when watercraft stopped staffing docks with a CM greeting ... talking ... answering questions and basically manning the decks between arrivals. They also helped with securing the boats, so they didn't smash into the dock with regularity as they do now. Now, you walk out to the buggy docks at say the WL and stand there with no CM and no idea when or if the next boat is arriving. This is all been part and parcel of the WalMarting of WDW. The 'well, do you know in one year we can save $111,854.63 in labor costs if we don't staff the docks?' <<It's also painfully obvious that the TTC is in need of some serious love and attention. These things help set up the MK experience and should not be forgotten.>> Well, they spent a lot on renovating the restrooms recently. And I believe they are replacing some roofs there as well. But the whole TTC is an antiquated mess because of the way WDW sprawled with its development and relied on 'cheap' buses to move guests vs. monorail, watercraft or other forms of transport. <<As for the MK, it has definitely lost its soul, charm, etc. Its only redeeming factor is the Haunted Mansion. The only park I still feel the charm, the immersion, and the nostalgia at is EPCOT...there is just something magical about World Showcase and that glittering, wand-free geosphere.>> Yeah. I think half of EPCOT lost its soul, but WS still has it. <<Great thread Spirit. I look forward to reading about Frontierland. IMO, the lands lose more and more of their souls as you make your around the MK (clockwise)...save for Liberty Square.>> Thanks. I don't know when I'll get to Frontierland comments (maybe tonight) as I need to return to work this afternoon. But Liberty Square hasn't been immune from it at all. They had three unique shops that became one Disney Christmas crap store. They have another that is basically a character merchandise shop when it used to be Colonial cooking items and products. The Keel Boats are long gone. The Fife and Drum corps too. And they've added ODV all over the place. At least it does have Mansion ... and hopefully a great new HoP. But there isn't a land that hasn't been affected.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<And haven't they brought foamheads into the TDL shows? Or are some of them still sans characters?>> <<Nope - rubberheads throughout. It is the TDR way - you won't find anything except for Mystic Rhythms at TDS that don't feature the characters. Guest demands drive their mandatory appearance in all shows.>> That's what I feared ... I still will likely do one of them.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I'm glad you are a convert! >> I admit I went in with very low expectations and was very pleasantly surprised. It's still not my kind of entertainment, but it is quality ... it is well-done. <<I'll always put D-MGM above MK until they drive out the live entertainment. MK has nada that interests me in terms of entertainment except for SpectroMagic and Wishes. Everything else is dire from the daytime parade to the new Stitch debacle.>> I don't really enjoy much of either of the above anymore. Spectro was never a favorite of mine and I can't fathom that it has played for almost two decades, while TDL has gone through three night parades during that time. And Wishes is amazing ... no doubt. But of all of Davison's shows I like this the least because the syrupy moppets soundtrack is just too much. <<D-MGM still has the charm with the streetmosphere which I can happily watch all afternoon (and frequently do!) - it is exactly what should be at the park. I also like the HSM shows - full of energy that brings a good vibe to the performance corridor.>> The streetmosphere is definitely great at Studios. I am shocked they haven't cut them ... yet. <<B&B definitely needs replacing (and my God have we tried!) but coupled with Little Mermaid they are still entertaining shows.>> They are also old and stale. Neither was ever intended to last nearly this long. And I could see them playing a decade from now in their current forms. <<The problem with D-MGM will always be the lack of true vision behind the park in the early '90s - structurally it is a mess and unfortunately will never be able to change.>> That is true ... the way the park was thrown together in a rush and then expanded created a mess.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<As for the MK, it has definitely lost its soul, charm, etc. Its only redeeming factor is the Haunted Mansion.>> And the JC, right Michael? Right? Haha
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<<<Then the boat accelrated during Al Weiss' all shops most sell the same crap phase which coincided w/ the Castle Cake. A dubious deciciosn that cemented the idea that WDWs manamgemnt was "not all there". >> it wasn't an Al-mandate so much as a company-wide decision. ... there could no longer be loss-leaders that were there for show as much as selling things ... MK (and merchandising as a whole) shops had to meet specific profit levels or they got cut ... And obviously doing things the WalMart way work, right?>> <<Actually - that particular project was driven by Al. It was to meet some aggressive targets by Burbank management but it was driven by Al.>> I stand corrected. I shouldn't be surprised ... although I didn't think Al had that much power back then. <<This is the problem with analysing senior management at both WDW Co. and WDP&R as it is easy to brand them all as "accountanteers" and "MBAs". The stark reality is that WDW Co is divided between those career cast members who often lack a decent education and have worked their way up the operational chain and those Harvard Business School MBAs who try to apply their theoretical learnings directly on to the resort. It is a clash of cultures and a clash of ideology. They just don't mesh. Al surrounded himself with people like him - average/sub-educated Ops people. Those folks understand how to open, run and close a park each day but they don't understand the complexity and nuances in matters like product and inventory mix, attraction menu planning and the notion of catering to all rather than to the average guest (which is the current ethos).>> My first reaction is I agree 100%. My second reaction, frankly, is a bit of shock considering you have often defended Disney's business practices that have in essence WalMarted WDW. On this site, you and I have often butted heads when you've been a proponent of such techniques that have enhanced the bottom line in the short term, but lead to long term brand degradation. My third (yeah, I know lots of reactions) reaction is kudos for you for having the balls to tell it like it is. The problems you mentioned above don't happen overnight. And they point to what I call a systematic flaw with Disney's current profit model. It is based on the build-out of the property. It is based on the faulty belief that there is a never-ending well of consumers with good will for Disney or new 'victims' of the DISNEY MAGIC marketing hype. The hype that people like myself realize is smarmy packaged nostalgia ... a 'remember when we cared? when we did things better than anyone else? The Disney Way?' ... that hype is what drives WDW largely today ... the notion that people can come and ride favorites like Mansion and Small World and Splash Mountain because they represent 'old Disney' ... the Disney Classic if you will that doesn't fit the current business model of resting on laurels and living off the amazing creative legacy of the greats from the past. That's why the MK (and much of the resort) sits and gets older and staler year after year. There is no vision. No foresight. No imagination. And very little caring. It's all about the next timeshare property ... or the next marketing scheme ... and, naturally, the next round of price increases to make it appear (at least on paper) like the product is performing. It's almost smoke and mirrors at this point. It is laughable, in a very sad way, that the people who run the company can't see why you might want to invest in the MK ... you might want the next big thing in themed entertainment to be in the No. 1 theme park in the world. The way the MK is run is diametrically opposed to both Walt's beliefs on keeping a park fresh and vibrant (and let's not even get into show and how it just doesn't seem to matter) and the way Disney ran the place for its first quarter century. <<My patience and desire to work with WDW Co. ended years ago and I have no intention of returning to central Florida until management is replaced - wholesale.>> WOW!!! You almost sound like fed-up fanboi! I would hope the fact voices like mine (and now yours) are being heard loud and clear from Burbank to Emeryville to Glendale to Orlando. This isn't simply being unhappy with a product, although obviously that is the case. Believe it or not, it's basic good business. It's about shareholder equity. As any good farmer knows the profit lies in tilling the fields, as every well eventually runs dry (see current economic headlines). <<The sad thing is that no-one in Jay's management structure looks beyond the bottom line - and Al has improved that immeasurably. But at what detriment to guests that don't want the "average" Disney experience?>> Am I talking to the real Lee MacDonald? Seriously, as someone in a 'sister' industry with a family history in the same, I'd love to sit in a room with these people and find if they are just looking to skim every last penny for their own self-advancement or if they're really just flat out running on empty in the brainpower department.
Originally Posted By CaptainMichael <<I didn't realize that's where you worked. You've likely captained my magical journeys more than once. Also, I could be wrong. But I don't believe watercraft has seen any new boats in decades. And talking about cutbacks, one of the earliest happened years ago when watercraft stopped staffing docks with a CM greeting ... talking ... answering questions and basically manning the decks between arrivals. They also helped with securing the boats, so they didn't smash into the dock with regularity as they do now. Now, you walk out to the buggy docks at say the WL and stand there with no CM and no idea when or if the next boat is arriving. This is all been part and parcel of the WalMarting of WDW. The 'well, do you know in one year we can save $111,854.63 in labor costs if we don't staff the docks?'>> Yep, that’s where I work when I’m around. I think it’s one of the best roles on property…I’m very fortunate. I think the newest addition to the fleet was the Mermaid I (it’s obvious by the name that there should have been a 2) We really need a 4th cruiser, so we can have 2 servicing Ft Wilderness and 2 servicing Wilderness Lodge. It’s not fair to the Lodge guests to only have 1 cruiser. A Motor Launch is not adequate (stroller and wheelchair problems as well as space). I never knew about the greeters. That would be very nice to do for sure. Guests are often clueless about the boats, the routes, etc. <<Well, they spent a lot on renovating the restrooms recently. And I believe they are replacing some roofs there as well. But the whole TTC is an antiquated mess because of the way WDW sprawled with its development and relied on 'cheap' buses to move guests vs. monorail, watercraft or other forms of transport.>> The TTC really needs a new look IMO. The color scheme is awful, it looks old, and most importantly, it’s not very “Disney” Also, the posters shamelessly promoting D23 and craptastic movies need to go away. Very inappropriate at the TTC and outside of the MK. Attraction posters would be much nicer…if they would actually build good attractions again and if they still did that sort of thing.
Originally Posted By CaptainMichael <<And the JC, right Michael? Right? Haha>> Only when the right people are working there. The AC luggage in the queue doesn't hurt either
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>OMG, I just realized while reading through this stuff just how ridged some folk are. If Walt had had the same "nothing should ever change" attitude that is prevalent here...<< I don't think anyone here is opposed to change. What we are opposed to is wholesale decay. Watching the MK slowly fade away isn't witnessing positive change. >>Who cares about the shops.<< A lot of people do. >>I have never gone to Disney to buy something. I went to experience something.<< But to suggest that shopping isn't a part of the experience is to deny something that most people from Walt on down clearly understood. The problem today is that most of the shopping "experience" really is nothing special. It's been reduced to the level of a trip to the mall. And that's the point behind this thread. >>The parks never have lost there soul because they never had one. It's the eye of the beholder that either has the soul or doesn't.<< But if there's nothing worth looking at, then the net effect is the same, no? >>If you can no longer look at things with childlike wonder, if you can no longer look at things without searching for the flaws then, the soul is indeed gone...but it's your own.<< Wherever the "soul" is coming from is irrelevant. The thesis here is that it is being lost. I have never gone to a Disney theme park looking for flaws. I would dare say that most of the people who are participating in this discussion are the same. But it has become increasingly difficult NOT to see what is plain: peeling paint, rotting wood, burned out light bulbs, and neglected landscape. And that's just the physical aspect of the problem. There are the intangibles as well: lax training, poorly thought out entertainment, shuttered locations, and a lack of innovative new offerings. No one has to look for these things; they are becoming increasingly front and center. >>Someone said, you can really tell how bad it is when there are about 30,000 people in there, then it is a mess. No kidding! Really? You don't think all those slobs didn't have something to do with it do you. You don't really believe that there can be enough custodial around to constantly follow behind each guest and pick up after there sorry butts, do you?<< Yes, we do, because that used to be the standard operating procedure in the Disney theme parks. If the MK had been no more than the average carnival all these years, this thread wouldn't exist. But the fact is that it used to be a much better experience-- and something as simple as trash pick up is an important factor in that. >>Call me an apologist if you like, doesn't matter to me. I like to think of myself as a realist though. I like to think that Disney is a really nice place that is run by humans...<< Yes. And those humans have the ability to make it a great place with "soul," as opposed to just a really nice place to, you know, buy stuff and eat stuff and look at stuff.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>The stark reality is that WDW Co is divided between those career cast members who often lack a decent education and have worked their way up the operational chain and those Harvard Business School MBAs who try to apply their theoretical learnings directly on to the resort. It is a clash of cultures and a clash of ideology. They just don't mesh. Al surrounded himself with people like him - average/sub-educated Ops people. Those folks understand how to open, run and close a park each day but they don't understand the complexity and nuances in matters like product and inventory mix, attraction menu planning and the notion of catering to all rather than to the average guest (which is the current ethos).<< As far as I'm concerned, this issue is Show. A Disney theme park is a show. Disneyland was built by show people who understood this. Walt Disney was a great entertainer, certainly, but he wasn't stupid. He also understood that the show needed to make money in order to go on. (And the show must go on!) So while Walt was making cartoons that sometimes cost more to make than they made up in revenues, he also licensed his characters through an ingenious accountant/promoter named Kay Kamen. Kamen understood the concept: The characters made a ton of money on lunch pails and note pads and candies, because the show (those darned expensive cartoons) made people want them. Disneyland was Walt's ultimate show, a show he could tinker with and revise and change every day, if he wanted to-- a show that could be altered and added to. And a show paid for by not just ticket sales, but by the licensees-- vendors who knew that folks would love the show so much that they would actually enjoy shopping and eating and spending their money. The problem today is the prevailing view is that the Disney theme parks are little more than glorified shops, and shops that sell a single product. The show has been reduced and reduced. The apotheosis of this was DCA, where it literally was a collection of shops and restaurants, with a few token "attractions" just to maintain the illusion that there was a show to see. And the public reaction was swift and definitive. We hated it. It is easy to run a store-- easy to quantify, easy to manage. Shows, on the other hand are based on intangibles. Producing shows is for risk takers and dreamers. But when the right combination is in place, it's magical for the public, and very, very lucrative for the producers.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo As is often the case Dug, you are spot on in your observations. People do not repeatedly travel long distances and spend a small fortune on a commercial, they want a show, and what a show Disney used to give us. For 1st timers or once a decade folk, maybe the show is fine. But for those that used to go more frequently, it is getting harder and harder to enjoy at WDW. I do not want to spend my time and money going to a park to pick flaws in the parks and resorts. But nowhere is perfect. We have had issues at DLP over the years, and maintenance is getting better, as are the amount of streetmousphere, but staggered openings and closings are not great. Also the focus on toons for entertainment means if it continues, there will be less interest as the kids grow up. Enough to ruin our trip? No. But it is enough to make me think about not renewing my AP for the 1st time in 10 years. When we went to WDW in 2006, I was soooo excited. We made sure we got all the reservations we needed for meals (Le Cellier, Ohana, Boma, Whispering Canyon, 50's Prime Time, Liberty Tree, Biergarten, the china pavillion, Morocco and the Teppanyaki place in Japan). We had a deluxe Savannah view room in AKL. I was stoked. Now most of you know the outcome. We did have some of the best experiences of our lives that trip (LP meet, meeting Marie Osmond, being dreamed on Star Tours - backstage tour and private Starspeeder 3000 etc.). However, overall we found the place lacking - poor bus and boat service (not individual cast members, but strategic and ops issues), awful condition of all the AA experiences including the brand new Yeti and Nemo Angler fish, filthy MK, and about 50% of the cast were adequate, 10% special and the rest definately not. I was angry and heart broken and left feeling a little ripped off. Fastforward to our last trip to Disneyland and DCA staying at the Grand Californian in 2008. I was really nervous, because for me it was the last shot I was giving Disney. If my original love was in the state of the MK and much of WDW, I was ready to just walk away. I was really nervous, especially with all the toon editions. But we got to DL and had a fantastic time (amazing LP meets were the cherry on top), but those aside, we still found the parks and attractions in tip top condition, clean, great cast, world class hotel experience, and a plethora of different live entertainment. Now that trip was not perfect either - Aladdin stampede injuring a dear friend anyone? Bit overall we had an awesome time that renewed my faith. And since then we have had 4 excellent experiences (with a few teething issues) in Paris. For me at the MK it would not take much - pressure walk and paint again (they are doing this more at DLP again). Offer themed entertainment in each of the lands again. Make sure the attractions are in tip top condition like the HM is again. Train and develop the cast. Offer some quality dining and shopping experiences. And then I would happily give Jay and Bob more of my money in their Fla cost centres. then the odd quality attraction (does not have to be an E) every 5-7 years, would be great. I would be willing to pay more or deal with shorter hours. But it is ironic they let this cash cow rot, and not only do people pay for it, but they will happily fork more money over specifically for a Christmas or Halloween party on the scale that DL, DLP and TDL offer up for free. Or even worse, a Pirate and Princess Party. I would have thought there would be a business case in the MK's favour on that alone? Not while the DOMs are around. But just like people came to their senses about Bush, they might about the MK. Or not (Europe is going scarily right wing right now).
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 << I drive the motor cruisers from Wilderness Lodge >> Thank you, thank you, thank you. I just got back a year ago this time from using your services. Nice peaceful ride, so much better than a bus.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Indeed, the launches are one of the very unique offerings that WDW has compared to it's brethren around the globe. Love them!
