Originally Posted By bobbelee9 Diminishing is only good if you're referring to my waistline, sadly I know you aren't.
Originally Posted By Disney and beyond I've only read the first page of this thread, so excuse me if I repeat ideas. I actually half agree with you here, Spirit. I think half the park has lost its soul, but I still blelieve that half the park is still as soulful as ever. Incidently, it really devides the park in half. Let's start with the three parts of the park that haven't lost its soul, mostly because not too many changes have been made in these parts. Fronteirland is my favorite part of the MK, and quite possibly my second favorite only to the World Showcase. That's really the one thing that I disliked about DL: Its Fronteirland just failed to capture that Western Magic, the way the west rambles on, as much as the WDW one does. Adventureland, with the exception of that treadful Tiki Room, to me is still, as they say in Pixar's latest masterpeice, "The Spirit of Adventure" The Jungle Cruise alone gives that area much much soul (Though the Good ol JC did give the worst Disney CM Experience of my short life, if anyone wants to hear that story just let me know.) And Finally, sort of a continuing of Fronteirland, Liberty Square reamains a favorite of mine, and one that, luckily, really can't lose its soul (At least not conceivably) and now to the souless parts. I'll admit, I was spoiled by the DL Fantasyland. As Much As I love Philharmagic, The WDW Fantasyland just utterly fails in comparison to the amzaing DL one. I'm desperate to see the WDW Fantasyland get a major redo. I'm sure most of you don't even need me to go over what has happened to Tomorrowland in the past couple years. I love the CoP, I enjoy the Laugh Floor,and I love Space Mountain, but Stitch just ruins the land despite all the good things it has. And Main Street... I was also spoiled by the DL Mainstreet, but I still love that feeling of walking through the station and seeing the castle. (I'm not really one to notice trees, so I can't talk about the loss of the Main Street Trees) I think a major thing about the difference between DL and MK is the fact that DL patrons have mnore respect for the park. DL fans are mostly local, they gorw up with it, they have the option to experience it every day, and they truely appriciate more what the "Soul" of Disneyland is. The Average WDW fan, on the other hand, is ussually only there anywhere from 3-7 days, and They don't grow up around the Disney Culture as much as DL fans do. They think of Disney as cute characters and Disney Channel. (I'm not dissing Disney Channel, I'm somewhat a fan, I'm just saying that Disney Channel creates a certain view if you really don't grow up around Disney) I've grown up in this "Fastpass" Culture, and I'll be honest and say that I'm a Fastpasser myself. I've grown up in a culture which has gone from appriciating the great entertainment such as Citizen Kane to one that is all about eating up whatever cute and cudley thing comes out next. I've grown up in a culture where studios went from asking "Which film will be the most quality." to "Which movie will make us the most money." I've grown up in a world where all many people want in their entertainment is blood, sex, swearing, gore. To sum it up best, I'll say I'm living in a Family Guy Culture. (I'm not a Family Guy Fan, btw. In Fact, I despise the show.) Anyways, All I'm saying is that I'm lucky enough to be able to be a FP guy, and still be appriciative of what Disney actually was, is, and will hopefully always will be. Besides, without the FP, how else would I be able to ride ToT-WDW five times a trip?
Originally Posted By CaptainMichael <<Thank you, thank you, thank you. I just got back a year ago this time from using your services. Nice peaceful ride, so much better than a bus.>> <<Indeed, the launches are one of the very unique offerings that WDW has compared to it's brethren around the globe. Love them!>> Thank you very much. I feel like watercraft transportation is Disney's REAL best kept secret, and it's more efficient than busses and equal to or better than monorails. It's sad to think that if the MK were built today, 7 Seas Lagoon probably wouldn't be included. It's one of those extra touches that made Disney special that today would be too costly for the executives and accountants to stomach.
Originally Posted By -em >>and equal to or better than monorails. << Glad you put equal in there, or else those would be fighting words.. Once a 'rail driver always a 'rail driver -em
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Let's start with the three parts of the park that haven't lost its soul, mostly because not too many changes have been made in these parts. Fronteirland is my favorite part of the MK, and quite possibly my second favorite only to the World Showcase. That's really the one thing that I disliked about DL: Its Fronteirland just failed to capture that Western Magic, the way the west rambles on, as much as the WDW one does.<<< Get yourself over to Disneyland Paris, then we will talk. Thunder Mesa at DLP is the finest western themed environment specifically created to be anywhere! I actually think WDW's is weaker than DL because of the wierd way Splash and BTMRR are next to each other and the lack of flow. DL has more folliage and a strong hispanic link. But I am nitpicing as I like the Frontierlands across the globe, I am just spoilt by ours in PAris.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>And Finally, sort of a continuing of Fronteirland, Liberty Square reamains a favorite of mine, and one that, luckily, really can't lose its soul (At least not conceivably)<<< Ah, but compared to what it once was, it has. Where are the Fife and Drum corp? How about a show in the Diamond Horshoe (which I believe is actually part of LSQ rather than Frontierland according to the maps)? Where have the silversmith and antique shops gone. In many ways, attractions aside, LSQ is like MSUSA, great on the outside, but not so much on the in.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo we have to toss a coin - ferry or monorail, love them both. Transport (except buses) are awesome things (says the geek)
Originally Posted By leemac <<My second reaction, frankly, is a bit of shock considering you have often defended Disney's business practices that have in essence WalMarted WDW. On this site, you and I have often butted heads when you've been a proponent of such techniques that have enhanced the bottom line in the short term, but lead to long term brand degradation.>> It is a fine line between enhancing profitability and brand degradation. Ultimately the blame lies with Burbank management and in particular Jim Hunt. HR decided that fiscal measures for STIs were the most appropriate and therefore that ensures that local managers are focused on delivering on those targets. There are now fewer and fewer non-financial KPIs in the STIs (like guest satisfaction) and so I can't blame local managers for trying to maximise their take-home. I've always maintained that WDP&R could be run more efficiently and more profitable - the focus on delivering results just wasn't there during Paul or Judson's reign. However you need to balance that with the ability to maintaining and even enhance the show. <<<<My patience and desire to work with WDW Co. ended years ago and I have no intention of returning to central Florida until management is replaced - wholesale.>> WOW!!! You almost sound like fed-up fanboi! I would hope the fact voices like mine (and now yours) are being heard loud and clear from Burbank to Emeryville to Glendale to Orlando.>> I'm no fanboi. There are plenty of us that are frustrated with the way things are going but it is mandated from senior management. I've always maintained that WDP&R can do what it likes providing it doesn't impact WDI. In the '90s WDI and WDA were hand-in-hand driving change at the parks. Now WDP&R drives everything and WDI is nothing more than a service provider. It is devastating to those who have dedicated their lives to Imagineering. I was hopeful that Bruce Vaughn would be able to defend WDI's place at the table. Instead he has become Jay's hatchetman within 1401F. WDI's influence has been chipped away until it is literally a shell of its former self. I know most fanbois and observers have little positive to say about Tom Fitzgerald but he would NEVER have allowed this to happen under his watch. He resolutely defended WDI (often to his own detriment) and did the best possible job to ensure its independence from the rest of WDP&R and Burbank. He had little say in what could be done in the parks in terms of new production but he was able to find a way to "enhance the classics" as WDP&R management weren't interested in enhancing attractions like Haunted Mansion at MK or getting new movies into World Showcase. People complain about the fact that a lot of footage in the new O Canada comes from other sources - that isn't WDI's fault. They did the best they could with the budget they had. When you no longer have any say in the budgetary requirements of projects you can only do the best you can with the resources at hand. SAP means that every single person is accountable for their time - including PAs and administrators. So when you have people like that adding $80 per hour to your cost center for a project it eats into your available budget. That adds up to about $125k annually for the lowest grade. Middle management imagineers (think directors) run to over $1m annually on SAP - that is a huge burden on your cost base. WDI should be a sunk cost - a cost center as WDP&R's creative heart. You need WDI to generate your content. Mark my words - we will end up as an outsourcing enterprise. WDI will become a lean mean machine run by administrators who use outsourced creative and engineering contractors. The Universal Creative model is exactly where we are heading unless there is a drastic change in tone of management at the top.
Originally Posted By leemac <<This isn't simply being unhappy with a product, although obviously that is the case. Believe it or not, it's basic good business. It's about shareholder equity. As any good farmer knows the profit lies in tilling the fields, as every well eventually runs dry (see current economic headlines).>> Actually for WDP&R it isn't good business. Ultimately it is outside factors that have affected the business for the post twenty years - recessions and terrorist activities. There is little evidence that new product drives attendance at WDW. Very little. So WDW Co. (as it was) can continue to drive incremental price increases and cost reductions to get to a better profit margin. There is no need to "till the fields" at WDW as there just isn't the basis to show it makes any difference. Naturally you need to ensure that your parks are safe and that the majority of the show is clean and appropriate but with short-term incentivization you don't need to look beyond a few years. The next management team can pick up the broken pieces in the future.
Originally Posted By -em Last night I spent a few hours at the MK and noticed a few things... 1) lots of exterior rehabs (almost bordering on too much) as every land I walked though baring Toontown (and Adventure/Tomorrow as I didn't go through there) had several buildings wrapped, least most had the matching building wrap but it was nice to see... 2) I now can't say I've not seen the big wigs walk the park as when I was waiting for Move It, Shake It, Jay, Meg, Al, Phil and 2 others I didn't recognize walked by (yes I tried to grab my camera fast enough but missed it) 3) Apparently I need to look up more as the two things I noticed to be the worse was that every queue line really needed to be swept and so many CMs shoes were far out of Disney Look... 4) There are still little touches of goodness there- I don't know if its common and I've just missed it or new but having all the planters at Columbia Harbor be planted with red white and blue flowers was a nice touch
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub Two things I have noticed besides the shoes(noticed that the last trip in April) If you want to be a Princess have perfect teeth and if you want to be in management have your shoes shined and a clean costume!
Originally Posted By sjhym33 I was thinking this morning as I was reading through this thread that what has happened at the MK in terms of shops is exactly what happened at The Disney Stores. The Disney Stores went from a unique shop that carried lots of exciting things including collectables (and was a must stop at when at the mall) to a homogenized shop of t-shirts and plush aimed for kids (mine are all grown. We all know what happened to The Disney Stores.
Originally Posted By HMButler1979 ""To sum it up best, I'll say I'm living in a Family Guy Culture."" Um, then you don't get Family Guy cause that show makes fun of the culture and the type of people you and we are lamenting.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>Um, then you don't get Family Guy...<< A lot of us "get" that it's nothing more than crass and loutish.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>Last night I spent a few hours at the MK and noticed a few things... 1) lots of exterior rehabs (almost bordering on too much) as every land I walked though baring Toontown (and Adventure/Tomorrow as I didn't go through there) had several buildings wrapped, least most had the matching building wrap but it was nice to see... 2) I now can't say I've not seen the big wigs walk the park as when I was waiting for Move It, Shake It, Jay, Meg, Al, Phil and 2 others I didn't recognize walked by (yes I tried to grab my camera fast enough but missed it) 3) Apparently I need to look up more as the two things I noticed to be the worse was that every queue line really needed to be swept and so many CMs shoes were far out of Disney Look... 4) There are still little touches of goodness there- I don't know if its common and I've just missed it or new but having all the planters at Columbia Harbor be planted with red white and blue flowers was a nice touch<< Very nice news... I'm surprised you saw the Execs. Spirit...Any plans to do EPCOT? I would love to hear your thoughts.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Great posts No. 96-97, Dug. I'd give ya a standing ovation, but I'm a Spirit and you wouldn't see me! (now, everyone go back and read them a second time since they are so on target!) Before I respond to anything else here, I did want to say (even though this forum is full of rational thinkers for the most part -- why I didn't post it elsewhere) that I WANT ... DESPERATELY ... perhaps ... for Disney to wow me like it once did. I may have a critical eye, but if anything I often grade Disney on a magical curve -- something that likely wouldn't have made Old Man Disney or his team of Legends very happy. I am someone who focused on the good (and still does) from Day 1 at DCA, where anyone except the morons in TDA (paging Darkbeer to the thread with George K's infamous quote to the LA Times about people settling for DL when DCA hit capacity daily!) could have seen they had an epic disaster in the making. I am someone who has often paid more to stay at Disney resorts when far better values and quality can be had off-site. Heck, I am someone who went to HKDL with eyes wide open for all of its inherent flaws and still greatly enjoyed the place. I am not a negative Spirit. I even tried to focus on things that were quality surprises for me on my last visit -- namely the AIE, KP and even the character street party at MK. But anyone who would argue that Disney isn't living off its past ... and marketing hype ... over substance just isn't seeing reality. And all the pics of nice new DVC units, empty dead zones like PI and balloons in the lighting capital of the world isn't going to change the fact that WDW is a very stale resort.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<When we went to WDW in 2006, I was soooo excited. We made sure we got all the reservations we needed for meals (Le Cellier, Ohana, Boma, Whispering Canyon, 50's Prime Time, Liberty Tree, Biergarten, the china pavillion, Morocco and the Teppanyaki place in Japan). We had a deluxe Savannah view room in AKL. I was stoked. Now most of you know the outcome. We did have some of the best experiences of our lives that trip (LP meet, meeting Marie Osmond, being dreamed on Star Tours - backstage tour and private Starspeeder 3000 etc.). However, overall we found the place lacking - poor bus and boat service (not individual cast members, but strategic and ops issues), awful condition of all the AA experiences including the brand new Yeti and Nemo Angler fish, filthy MK, and about 50% of the cast were adequate, 10% special and the rest definately not. I was angry and heart broken and left feeling a little ripped off.>> And that touches on another thing too, Dave. Namely that you, like many (most?) WDW guests are paying top dollar to be there. They aren't a three-hour drive (although it looks like the oil lobby that wants to destroy the country will have $3-plus a gallon gas again in time for my upcoming drive!) or 30-minute flight away. They likely aren't staying (at least until 2008 anyway) on vastly discounted rates -- I am always on a CM/AP/FLA resident rate. Or they aren't Pricelining a great non-Disney hotel for anywhere from $20-85 a night. They aren't likely having 20% knocked off every meal with the DDE ... or leaving property for a $3 light meal at McD's. Even now, I'm looking at two-bedroom 1600-sq-ft villas for $99 a night. Most people pay vastly more to visit WDW than I have ... and if I feel like I'm not getting my $$$'s worth ... well, how does the poor sap who just dropped 10 grand on a magical two-week WDW vacation feel? The powers at Disney don't care because again, they believe there's a never-ending supply of guests who don't have the decades of conditioning and expectations that we do. WHat they fail to realize is that many great names in American business from just 20 years ago, pioneers in their businesses, no longer exist because they got fat, lazy and tired and relied on their reps. While Mickey Mouse may survive everything including a nuclear war, there are no guarantees whatsoever that TWDC will exist forever or in its current form, certainly no guarantees that WDW will. But that isn't the 'tude you get from the arrogant people running the company. It's a very dangerous attitude to have ...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Get yourself over to Disneyland Paris, then we will talk. Thunder Mesa at DLP is the finest western themed environment specifically created to be anywhere! I actually think WDW's is weaker than DL because of the wierd way Splash and BTMRR are next to each other and the lack of flow. DL has more folliage and a strong hispanic link. But I am nitpicing as I like the Frontierlands across the globe, I am just spoilt by ours in PAris.>> I would agree. I find DLP and DL's versions to be superior ... but MK is definitely better than HKDL! MK has three big attractions in Splash, BTMRR and CBJ ... but all the unique shops are long gone. Frontier Trading Post has become a giant pin outlet, because we all know if there's one thing MK lacks would be places to pick up ten-cent pins for $12.98. The Diamond Horseshoe ie empty. The Canoes disappeared at least 15 years ago for good. TSI isn't in as bad shape as DL's was, but it also lost Aunt Polly's (one of those special magical places). >>>And Finally, sort of a continuing of Fronteirland, Liberty Square reamains a favorite of mine, and one that, luckily, really can't lose its soul (At least not conceivably)<<< <<Ah, but compared to what it once was, it has. Where are the Fife and Drum corp? How about a show in the Diamond Horshoe (which I believe is actually part of LSQ rather than Frontierland according to the maps)? Where have the silversmith and antique shops gone. In many ways, attractions aside, LSQ is like MSUSA, great on the outside, but not so much on the in.>> Good point. At various points, the DH was considered part of LS, not Frontierland (kind of like our version of the Matterhorn). But either way, LS is a much blander, simpler and less fleshed out version of what it was.
