Originally Posted By barboy //Unless I totally missed the joke.// One fairly reliable test to really know if she was using the lethargic, mocking appraoch to comedy vs. if she truly should look for another position due to her negative, biting ways would be to look at the reactions of the the other guests on the boat. Since there would likely be a pretty good mix of guests(maybe 1 or 2 were from Britain, maybe 3 from Jersey, 1 from Chicago, 4 from Florida and so on) on the boat if nobody found her spiel amusing and then I'd say it's a safe bet the skipper is jaded and cynical. I wish I had been on the boat to see if I would have had a different interpretation.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Or maybe it is the red necks, bible belters and the humidity that takes away from my enjoyment.>> Dave... I don't remember when your recent visits to WDW have been, but if they've been during peak periods I can see why you would have left dissatisfied. We almost always visit WDW during January. The weather is lovely, the crowds are light, and the kids are in school. The parks are much cleaner than during peak periods and you can get same-day reservations at almost any WDW restaurant even with the regrettable Disney Dining Plan in place. I also think it is likely that the Paris park, and to a lesser extent Disneyland, are geared toward a somewhat more sophisticated guest. Any Disney Park is going to try to provide what it's clientele want and expect. That's not to say that I think all WDW visitors are rednecks. Actually, some of the worst behavior I've seen at WDW was by Europeans... A French couple at the All Star Music food court who slapped a little girl (about 3 years old) across the face hard because she was refusing to eat her breakfast. A British couple at the All Star Music pool bar that was obviously three sheets to the wind. They were loudly berating their two teen-aged children for not properly appreciating all the money it took to take them to WDW. It was terrible seeing a couple of kids humiliated that way... especially at WDW. Now I certainly don't believe all Europeans are that tacky. But not all U.S. Southerners are either.
Originally Posted By leemac <<And Tom isn't? At least Tony has a better portfolio than Tom which gives him REASON to be full of himself. He is the George Lucas of WDI. The fanboy favorite. The man who gave us the second golden age of Disney parks and created more new memories. What did Tom give us? Oh yea, Esurance flash animation at SSE and autobiographical WDI/Burbank struggle in Tikis UNM. >> Disneyland is a better portfolio than Disneyland Resort Paris now? One ageing park is better than two parks, Disney Village, six hotels and one campground? No imagineer would agree to that. There is a reason why Tony was given DL - there is virtually no investment going into that park any time soon. It is easier to let him play around with "fanboi" favorites like Great Moments.... and the Sleeping Beauty Castle Walk-through - minor rehabs of attractions that should never have closed on limited budgets. DL isn't getting anything beyond a C until well after Tony is pushed off into retirement. He can dream all he likes but unless he can convince management to put it on the 5 Year Plan he doesn't have a chance. DL has nothing but Blue Sky concepts right now - years away from anything. It is a political game. Tony can't lose - he gets all the credit for IJA - when it was a phenomenal team effort - and none of the flak for the Tomorrowland '98 debacle which he led. Or Pooh. Those are completely excusable because he didn't have the budget. No other show producer gets the same pass. He also happily takes credit for Star Tours when the it was also a team effort - particularly from the TPP folks like Tom Fitzgerald. Tony is only interested in his own legacy - hence why he persisted with his designs to make DCA the "free entrance" to DL and switch the entry to the south side of the resort. He felt he was the only one who could possibly "fix" DCA even though it wasn't his responsibility. There is a reason why he is the only portfolio leader to have just ONE park. There was no way they were going to give him $1.3bn to play with on DCA. No-one would have wanted to work with him. Bob Weis is a collaborator. The great disappointment to me is that he is a great show producer - not a great storyteller as plot is his weakness (which is why the TDL team decided not to replicate the DL version of Splash). He just can't keep his hands out of other imagineer's cookie jars. Tom's output is equally prolific but from a film perspective. All of the 3D movies post-EO are Tom's work as producer and he also conceived and produced arguably the best movie to ever be shown inside a theme park, period - CineMagique at WDSP. He just doesn't create attractions. He is portrayed as the villain of the piece to the outside fan community - blamed for every underachieving attraction even when he has no involvement. Blamed for parks like WDSP and HKDL when he inherited those from Marty and had no wiggle room with the budget. I have no idea why many in the fanboy class have problems with either Tom or Eric Jacobson when both have had as much success as any other imagineer. Tom was not in charge of WDI for Tiki Room: Under New Management. He was in his TPP role at that time. Marty approved that attraction. This attraction and others like Stitch's Great Escape! demonstrate that even the best imagineers aren't flawless. Kevin Rafferty wrote both - and he is one of the best show writers to ever work at WDI. He also conceived PhilharMagic, it's tough to be a bug! and Toy Story Midway Mania. No-one's copybook is entirely blot-free.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 <<Or maybe it is the red necks, bible belters and the humidity that takes away from my enjoyment.>> Sounds to me you want the park all to yourself. How many elitist snobs can LP handle? I'm with RoadTrip, and he's not labeling anyone. Anyone who loses his job and heads for DLP, can't be suffering financially. Well not everyone is in that well off. Or maybe they just want to save for their retirement. I resent being called ignorant just because I don't want to spend the money to go to DLP.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I was partially joking hence the smiley (no need to get all personal). But there is a very different vibe about the MK to it's brethren parks. Not that that any of the others are perfect. They seldom are. as for being an elitist snob? Yep, I am. (I'm also a little red neck too).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo And the point about ignorant, was in reply to the fact that there are a number of WDW fans that do not know what the park used to be, what the service on offer used to be.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Definition of ignorance in the webster's dictionary is: The lack of knowledge or education. Ergo, if they have not experienced what the MK used to be, they are ignorant. Have people really lost touch with the meanings of language as the etymology of words are forgotten in favour of the common vernacular?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo This was never about money. And not that it is any of your business, but my trip was already paid for before I lost my job including the Euros exchanged. So why not go?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Also, FWIW, I am not saying any of the parks have better behaviour either. In DLP they are always queue jumping, pushing, smoking and BO. IN DL, everyone acts like they own the place becuase they have been going on a regular basis for generations. I cannot talk about HKDL and TDL, as I am ignorant of the 1st hand information having not yet been. But I do know that all of the English speaking parks have degraded in their maintenance and offerings, and the worst offender where it can be seen and measured the most on the curve is the Magic Kingdom IMHO.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo To be fair Roadtrip, that vacation was the 1st 2 weeks of december, and Pop Warner and the Christmas Parade filming were taking place.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip My first trip to WDW was in 1991, which I believe still qualifies as the "glory days", though at the end. I remember the parks being cleaner, I remember the merchandise being more differentiated, and I remember much of what you and the Spirit talk about. Our difference is that I saw that as frosting on the cake, not the soul of the park. Some of the frosting is gone, but the cake (soul) is still there. I am satisfied with how things are now (not thrilled; satisfied) because I feel things added since 1991 offset the steps backward the MK has taken. To me Splash Mountain, the Tower of Terror, Rock and Roller Coaster, Test Track, Mission Space, Soarin' and the ENTIRE Animal Kingdom make my 2009 WDW experience better than my 1991 WDW experience. I know you may disagree, but I don't know that your opinion is any more valid or "correct" than mine is. I also grant that my opinion is no more valid or "correct" than yours. The only elitism I have a real problem with is the elitism involved in feeling one's opinion is superior to others when it is a subjective matter. Was the MK cleaner in 1991 than it is now? Yes, it was. That can be answered objectively. Has the MK lost its soul? I say no, and my answer is just as good as any other. It is entirely subjective... there is no right or wrong.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Hi all! Couldn't resist jumping into this therapy session. As one of the original "canary in the coal mine" posters from a dozen years ago it chokes me up to see a pal like Lee now speak of brand degradation. Spirit, loved your MK analysis and hope for more. You really summed up the big complaints from the last decade. Main Street guest offerings, trees, brick planters in plaza, custodial, castle corridor, etc. The one thing that you only briefly mentioned that I believe plays an enormous role in the effect described on this thread (MK losing its soul), is what FP has done to the castle parks. It is my belief that FP has fundamentally changed the way the 'average guest' experiences a castle park, with MK suffering most drastically. FP now has folks rushing between each land, each chapter so to speak, back and forth all day playing the FP game and meanwhile a lot becomes lost in translation. DL and MK were designed to have folks experience the lands one at a time. FP destroys that intended design and rather puts the importance of a guests' experience on gaming the marquee attractions, with little regard to the cohesive show originally attended by the real imagineers of the past. I think this change in the way lands are visited plays a huge part on the vibe of the MK. IMO, MK is affected in this regard far more than DL due to a dozen unique factors including attraction density, dissimilar FP offerings, resort culture, etc. In addition to the points you raise Spirit, I do believe this plays a significant role in emptiness of the park experience.
Originally Posted By ChiMike ...and btw, Spirit, in my book, the removal of Toad was the 2nd biggest attraction removal screw-up in the history of WDW. With of course JII being #1. The CBJ removal at DL while completely odd in its own right, had far less an impact than Toad's respectively, imo. In all rights, Hunny Hunt should have been added to any of the 20K/toontown areas
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 <<And the point about ignorant, was in reply to the fact that there are a number of WDW fans that do not know what the park used to be, what the service on offer used to be.>> We went in 79,81,85,88,90,96,99,2000,2001,2003,2006,2008. I've seen a lot of changes good and bad. I certainly miss some of what was there, but some of the new stuff isn't that bad either. The park's changed, times have changed and I have changed. WDW perfect? Certainly not, but it's still got more of what I want than any other place I can think of.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 <<Have people really lost touch with the meanings of language as the etymology of words are forgotten in favour of the common vernacular?>> Yes, and words take on new or common meanings as the world changes. The way you used ignorant, I took as meaning stupid.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<It is my belief that FP has fundamentally changed the way the 'average guest' experiences a castle park, with MK suffering most drastically. FP now has folks rushing between each land, each chapter so to speak, back and forth all day playing the FP game and meanwhile a lot becomes lost in translation.>> Well ChiMike, I am in agreement with you there. The wonderful thing though is no one forces you to use it. We use it ONCE per visit, for Peter Pan. We don't alter anything else we do. We typically hit Fantasyland mid-afternoon and pick up a Fastpass that will give us a ride sometime after the fireworks and before park close. Kind of a perfect way (and for us traditional) way to end our day at WDW.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 <<Was the MK cleaner in 1991 than it is now? Yes, it was>> I am not disagreeing with you nor, am I saying it's ok to be less clean. But I wonder how much of that is the fault of the "guests" IMHO people have become filthly slobs over the years. Now is this because they put in the cheaper hotels? I'm not saying that meant we got in trashier people, but that the same people who'd been coming for years suddenly became trashier because it wasn't costing as much? Case in point, I work at a church that has a private school, grades pre-kindergarten to 8. The students wear uniforms, they are very well behaved. On the days when they have "out of dress code" the kids are less well behaved. The uniform makes a difference, and I wonder if the price people pay on their vacations also makes a difference.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Wow, I understand what's behind Lee's change of tune, but I never thought I'd see you agree with me RT.. First post out of the gate no less... My immediate response would be that not many folks have the ability or inclination to visit in January. While I share your outlook on the benefits of visiting in January, I would suggest that you would be using the FP system more if visiting at other times of the year. In many cases one, especially the unfamiliar new guest, is coerced into using the system out of necessity. Happy to know we agree, despite personal usage and habits, that it's macro effect remains constant. Hope you and your family remain well,
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<While I share your outlook on the benefits of visiting in January, I would suggest that you would be using the FP system more if visiting at other times of the year.>> I've been at WDW once in July, once at Easter, and several times at Thanksgiving. I know how to deal with the crowds, and it does not involve Fastpass. Those times of the year I hang out at Epcot which does remarkably well with crowds and then hop to the MK about 8 PM. I went to the MK ONCE on the Friday after Thanksgiving. We left after an hour. Every Thanksgiving trip after that we did Friday to Friday instead of Saturday to Saturday. I didn't see any sense to being in the parks on Thanksgiving Friday.
Originally Posted By Skellington88 Very good points in this thread HOWEVER Lee Mac is very wrong about Disneyland and Mr. Baxter. Disneyland will be recieving an exciting new e-ticket very soon (Star Tours) and as long as Lasseter is around new projects will be greenlit for the park down the road.
