Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Next thing you know, they will be claiming that education is only for those that can afford it.<< They aren't that far behind Dave.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>"Health industry" should be an oxymoron. The system we have now is completely illogical, unfair, inefficient to the max, and ends up costing us soooo much more than single payer would. That's the only way to go. << Sometimes I feel that I really live on te fictional Star Trek world of Ferenginar. I suppose that we will all soon be learning the Rules of Acquisition
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///The Constitution, right off the bat, guarantees the right to LIFE./// (or more like towards the end of the charter) But Amend. 5 also tells us that the US gov't can't be depriving us of property as well. If you are arguing that the constitution guarantees all must have health care then what about property?
Originally Posted By Mr X You're right about it not being right off the bat, I was thinking of the preamble to the declaration of independence. Even so, yes it is addressed as you say in the 5th amendment (reflecting the declaration in terms of life and liberty), and so ignored by right wingers. As far as your contention about property, you are being disingenuous. The government can and does take away property all the time. It simply has to provide just compensation, as indicated right there in the 5th amendment.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo My mother has genetic chronic disabilities, as do I, and most hit are my brothers. In 1985, my 's insurance company stopped paying when the tests proved the issues were genetic, and as an 11 year old boy, the Doctor said to me to prepare to lose my mother within a few years. We moved to the UK where we have a tax funded health service (one where I had braces for free, and even if I wanted to pay to have them sooner, it would have been much cheaper than the US). My mom is still a pain in the neck and with us, thanks to the medical interventions. my brothers have holes in their heart, scoliosis, a neurological disorder, and deformaties in their legs My 14 year old brother is having surgery before easter to try to ensure he can continue to walk If we lived in the US, because of the genetic situation, he would be in a wheelchair for the rest of his life (with shortened life expectancy). My mom and dad are well skilled and educated (though dad did have cancer in the base of his spine a few years ago which stopped him being able to work for 18 months). If this had all happened in the US, god only knows what would have happened. But there are public goods that the right wing don't think about. With a lot of US insurance, if you have STI tests including HIV, you are no longer covered. That is a huge disinsentive to test. And that means the diseases can spread unchecked putting many people at risk. and let's also talke about freedom. I have never stayed in a job that was career limiting or that I hated because of concern of loosing medical coverage. To me, it feels like I have far more liberty over here because of that. So many contradictions.
Originally Posted By Labuda "With a lot of US insurance, if you have STI tests including HIV, you are no longer covered. That is a huge disinsentive to test." Holy CRAP! Seriously? What companies do this, Dave? I have Humana and, hey, after my ex cheated on me, I spent the six months after that getting an HIV test every month... I'd go ABSOLUTELY ballistic on a company if they stopped my insurance just because I got cheated on then wanted to be sure I was safe. Just wow... here's hoping that United isn't like that, either... I'll be moving to them on 1 Jan since that's who my employer is making us go with now.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I'm not sure of the companies Ann, it was at an international conference where the case study was reported last year, it made my blood boil (and I took a lot of flamage from the delegation, even though I have lived in the UK longer than some of them have lived on this planet)
Originally Posted By mawnck >>But Amend. 5 also tells us that the US gov't can't be depriving us of property as well.<< See also: Amendment 16.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<What happened to Donny? Not a peep from him.>> Same thing happened in the other thread where we asked him to provide specific examples of the lies he claimed were told by the MSNBC show hosts (Rachel Maddow, Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews, and Ed Schultz). I tossed down the gauntlet and he never picked it up. I've noticed this trend before. Whenever we provide concrete specific examples and facts from the real world to counter his GOP talking points claims, he rarely returns to the thread to continue the discussion. He simply creates another one on a different topic, or pops into an existing discussion with more GOP talking points. Like other Republican supporters, Donny is unable to defend the talking points when real world verifiable facts come into the picture. That's the time he typically runs off to regroup for a different battle.
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///As far as your contention about property, you are being disingenuous. The government can and does take away property all the time./// What's going on here? You were not talking about "taking away"; you were talking about the reverse. You were suggesting that gov't has to supply or furnish health care to all to remain square with the Constitution. So what about property? Does the gov't have to make sure all of its subjets have property as well?
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///See also: Amendment 16/// You meant 14, right? I purposely didn't reference Amend. #14 because it was addressing individual states. But hey, since I'm a "full incorporationist" I do like to see the entire the Bill of Rights extend to the 50 states and maybe that can open up even more dialogue.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Does the gov't have to make sure all of its subjets have property as well? << But of course. And a chicken in every pot, 40 acres and a mule, and a partridge in a pear tree. By the way, what the heck are you talking about?
Originally Posted By barboy2 Everyone should have access to health care....EVERYONE But I don't see it as a Constitutional obligation but something even more important, something even more fundamental than our charter and that is human compassion and common sense.
Originally Posted By lesmisfan i believe affordable health care should be made to all. I unfortantley do not have health care because my job won't give me full time status because of school so its very hard for someone like myself. for example, this past spring I had to go to a hospital with terrible pains that turned out to be kidney stones and i get a 10,000 hospital bill that i can not possibly afford and then have creditors breathing down back and calling me all the time because i haven't paid it. luckiy i have fought with the hospitals and gov't and have it down to about a little less than six hundred, still a huge amound for a part time worker with other bills to pay like car, car insurance, food, clothing, etc. right now if im lucky i can pay about ninety a month for that bill but get charged interest for every day its not payed in full so that is hurting me as well.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones A certain level of health care is a commodity. I forget which Nordic nation does it, but they offer basic health care and then people can buy add-ons like, uhm, breast implants or something, I don't know. But the point is that a basic level of care ought to be provided and justified by the fact that adequate health care is a public good. lesmisfan told a story about his or her medical bill debt that was ridiculously discounted. It would have probably been more productive if he or she were able to get basic, preventative care to prevent the kidney stones in the first place. I imagine a lot of people ignore problems when they first start, and don't even get checkups. I haven't been to the doctor in years.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones And they ignore warning signs, of course, because of the fear of high medical bills, more so than death in some cases.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>luckiy i have fought with the hospitals and gov't and have it down to about a little less than six hundred, still a huge amound for a part time worker with other bills to pay like car, car insurance, food, clothing, etc.<< Even if you were insured you would probably have a "high deductible" plan that would still leave you on the hook for the first few thousand dollars of your bill. The moral of the story in America? Don't get sick unless you are rich, or are lucky enough to have quality insurance (an endangered species I'm afraid). >>And they ignore warning signs, of course, because of the fear of high medical bills, more so than death in some cases.<< A personal anecdote: A coworker of mine, who is on one of those wonder high deductible plans, had her (then unemployed) husband call her while she was driving to work. He was having chest pains and chose not to go to the ER because of the cost. Fortunately for him the pains went away, but he could have died because of a $1500 deductible they couldn't afford at the time. This is becoming the new normal. I had a blood panel taken on Monday (going next Monday for my annual check up). Out of the 30 people waiting to have their blood drawn, I only saw 3 who were too young to be in the Medicare crowd,and one of those 3 had to write a check for the full amount of the labwork (probably uninsured). I have seen the same trend at my doctor's office. The only "customers" left are the Medicare crowd as working families can no longer afford to see the doctor (thanks to those wonderful HD plans). I know couples who want to have children but can't afford the doctor and hospital bills (especially if a C-section is involved) becaus ethey are uninsured. Some do it anyway and end up with the equivalent of a luxury car payment for years (which they can't afford). It boggles my mind that Americans have been brainwashed againt a single payor system.
Originally Posted By lesmisfan >>luckiy i have fought with the hospitals and gov't and have it down to about a little less than six hundred, still a huge amound for a part time worker with other bills to pay like car, car insurance, food, clothing, etc.<< "Even if you were insured you would probably have a "high deductible" plan that would still leave you on the hook for the first few thousand dollars of your bill." here is the thing, this happened when i had insurnace under my parents and they never forced me to take a cat scan for the stones, they just gave me medication, the only thing i payed aside the fifteen or twenty dollars for the meds was another twenty five for a deductible. I think when you have no insurance hospitals take full advantage.
