Originally Posted By mawnck >>On the same token, I still don't see how the (very wrong) opinions of one CEO somehow destroyed the rights of homosexuals in this country.<< I don't see how specific grievances always get turned into this big confusing mishmash by the right wing media. I see WHY, but I don't see how the audience can just keep falling for it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I really find this whole thing depressing. All of it. The initial comment, the reaction to it, people "supporting" such nonsense, politicians grinning and thumbs-upping for Twitter photos with a sack of chicken. It's ugly bigotry, and I am sure that years from now, people in those photos lining up for this display of "support" will be embarrassed. I always wonder, when looking at some racist in an old photo, if their heart ever changed over the years, or if they just dug in deeper.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <but he contributed a lot of money to organizations that are dedicated to destroying or limiting rights.> Exactly. And it's not just marriage equality. Focus on the Family actively works to keep the status quo in those states where it's perfectly legal to fire someone just for being gay (something like 37 states); any time one of those states or even cities introduces a measure to include "sexual orientation" in the already-existing statutes that forbid discrimination on the basis of race, religion, etc., FOF can be counted on to pour in plenty of money and effort and threats to local pols to make sure that discrimination remains legal. They also support things like Tennessee's "don't say gay" law in which teachers can't even mention the topic, even in sex ed class - enforced invisibility, just so the gay teens in TN understand that they're freaks, unworthy of even coming up in polite conversation. This is why they've been designated a hate group, as indeed they are. CFA also contributes heavily to "ex-gay" groups like Exodus which try to shame gay people into "changing" and saying if they only pray hard enough, they'll magically turn straight. Not only does this not work, it's downright harmful to the people who try to change and then find they can't. I've said this before, but to me a much better analogy than Nazis is this: what if Chik-Fil-A donated millions to the Klan? Or the Aryan Nations? They'd have every right to make those donations as a private business. But I think everyone would understand why that would be morally reprehensible. Though 40-50 years ago, a LOT of people would have considered it just the opposite, and have been proud to stand with them - which is essentially what we're seeing now, but with another group of people as the ones that need to be kept in their place as inferior.
Originally Posted By MissCandice Toony, I'm with you. This whole thing has just depressed the heck out of me. I guess I live in a cloud of my own where most of my friends and family are tolerant, smart, and sane people. Seeing all those people in lines at CKA and hearing that the 2nd was their best sales day ever makes me want to cry. How can people be so hateful? How can someone go in there and buy a sandwich when that means they are taking a stand against gay people having the same rights as them? I just don't get it.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 ///Meet Jane Devin/// <I'd rather not....she sounds like she has real issues with a lack of self esteem and confidence. > Really? You read that, and that's what you came away with? Wow. I understood every word. I'm going to guess you simply don't know what it's like to have millions of people consider you to be an inferior human, an object of pity (at best), or scorn or ridicule or even violence because of who you are, someone that children need to be protected from, someone someone surely going to Hell, someone determined to "bring down" society, someone simply not welcome in all the places "decent" people are welcome. I have no trouble with self-esteem, but I've known all those things in my life, and if you haven't I really don't know if you can understand it. Seeing those millions of people lined up for CFA was a stark reminder that, no matter how far we've come and how inevitable equality is in the long run, there are still millions of people who feel exactly that way about me, for no damn good reason. And they're even proud of it, and will hold on to it as long as they can. They've got the numbers and the malice - overt or subterranean - to make life more difficult for me for a good while longer yet. It felt like a punch in the gut to me too.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Toony, I'm with you. This whole thing has just depressed the heck out of me. I guess I live in a cloud of my own where most of my friends and family are tolerant, smart, and sane people. Seeing all those people in lines at CKA and hearing that the 2nd was their best sales day ever makes me want to cry. How can people be so hateful? How can someone go in there and buy a sandwich when that means they are taking a stand against gay people having the same rights as them? I just don't get it.<< I hear you, Candice. It all looks like some other country to me, and makes me realize that in spite of how far things have moved forward for civil rights, just below the surface is this ugly bunch that resists, resists, resists equality every damn step of the way. History repeating itself.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 <<The initial comment, the reaction to it, people "supporting" such nonsense, politicians grinning and thumbs-upping for Twitter photos with a sack of chicken>> Some could have been there because it was the in thing to do, this country tends to be that way. Yeah I get all the he's donated to groups that want to destroy the rights of homosexuals, but why not give a big F you to groups like that and continue fight for what you believe in. It seems like a lot in the gay community are just giving up because of this one incident that even five years from now nobody will remember.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 OK, I've had enough, it is illogical to compare the civil rights movement of the 50s to the marriage and equality rifts that many are fighting for today. When gays have to have separate restrooms or have to sit on back of the bus, or face issues trying to vote we can talk. Truth is, the homosexual rights lobby has quite a bit of pull in Washington. Stop acting like your cause is such a big deal and you are deeply hurt by "discrimination" Is it bad? Sure, but nothing compared to the fight in the 50s for equality.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Yeah I get all the he's donated to groups that want to destroy the rights of homosexuals, but why not give a big F you to groups like that and continue fight for what you believe in. It seems like a lot in the gay community are just giving up because of this one incident that even five years from now nobody will remember.> Huh? Who's giving up? A boycott IS a way of fighting back. The "kiss-in" is another way. And trust me - pro-gay activism has ramped up because of this. Articles like the one mawnck posted simply say what a wake-up call it was to see how much bigotry remains - but "giving up" is not how I've seen most people react to that wake-up call. In fact, part of the backlash-to-the-backlash has been people saying gay and gay-friendly people are "reacting too strongly" or "how dare you infringe on this man's free speech rights" (even though no one's done that.)
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <OK, I've had enough, it is illogical to compare the civil rights movement of the 50s to the marriage and equality rifts that many are fighting for today.> No it isn't. That's not just me saying that, it's people like Coretta Scott King, John Lewis, and Julian Bond. People who would know. Forgive me if I think they may have just a TAD more expertise in the field than you, William. <When gays have to have separate restrooms or have to sit on back of the bus, or face issues trying to vote we can talk.> And when black people have to hide who they are, feel like they can't even tell the people closest to them that they ARE black, and even get kicked out of their own families for being black, then THEY can talk? The two movements are not identical and each has its unique issues, but they are absolutely allied. Just as MLK took both inspiration and tactics from Gandhi, even though the Indian struggle for independence was quite different from the American civil rights movement. <Truth is, the homosexual rights lobby has quite a bit of pull in Washington.> You're kidding yourself. DOMA remains in place. It was down to the wire to repeal DADT, even AFTER the Pentagon brass said they favored it. Those who oppose gay rights have far more clout in Congress right now than those who favor them. No question things are better, but there's also no question they're not where they need to be. <Stop acting like your cause is such a big deal and you are deeply hurt by "discrimination" Is it bad? Sure, but nothing compared to the fight in the 50s for equality.> Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. There's no need to play "more oppressed than thou" unless one is intentionally trying to divide and conquer. The dismissive attitude is wonderful too. It has been illegal to discriminate in employment and housing on the basis of race in all 50 states. It is still legal to do so to gay people in (I believe) 37. It wasn't that long ago that Cracker Barrel, for instance, boasted of firing any gay person they discovered. I happen to know a lot of people in the Bible Belt, and if you think it doesn't happen there, you're crazy. It doesn't tend to get a lot of attention, because when it happens, there's no redress. It's perfectly legal.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>OK, I've had enough<< Oh, we'll in that case...yeah...I really don't care. Your post is ignorant about the struggles of the gay rights movement.
Originally Posted By ecdc Oh, and ironically, you've just demonstrate why the gay rights movement is so similar to the civil rights movement. After black Americans began to get more rights and things began to improve, the injustices of the past wer quickly forgotten and they were told to quit their whining. It became a new form of racism. Curious....
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 It's not ignorant, it's the truth. You don't know anything about me so assuming I Am homophobic or whatever is ignorant. Not once have I ever posed anythIng negative about the homosexual community. I just think many in the gay community are blowing this way out of proPortion.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Not once have I ever posed anythIng negative about the homosexual community<< Right after >>Stop acting like your cause is such a big deal and you are deeply hurt by "discrimination"<< If that's tough love, my guess is most gay people will pass. Your post remains ignorant; it fails to take into account the progress made over the past few decades when very few gay people could safely come out of the closet without fear of losing their family, or their job, or in some cases, their life. The number of incidents against gays may be smaller than those against black Americans in the Civil Rights movement, but that's probably because one can't hide their skin color the way they can hide their sexuality. To tell people to stop acting like not being able to marry who they love is a big deal is ignorant and insensitive.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, unless you are gay in which case your rights are entirely alienable. Gimme some fries.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>It seems like a lot in the gay community are just giving up because of this one incident that even five years from now nobody will remember.<< Oh, I dunno about that. Chilean miners? People forget about them. Throngs of people deliberately lining up to support discrimination? Those photos have a lot of staying power. >>Sure, but nothing compared to the fight in the 50s for equality.<< Those wusses in the 1950s didn't have it as bad as the pre-Civil War slaves either. What a buncha crybabies. (/sarcasm) >>You don't know anything about me so assuming I Am homophobic or whatever is ignorant.<< Where were you at lunchtime on Wednesday?
Originally Posted By Autopia Deb >>> How can people be so hateful? How can someone go in there and buy a sandwich when that means they are taking a stand against gay people having the same rights as them? I just don't get it. <<< Let me preface this by stating even if there were a CFA right across the street I would not have purchased a single french fry from them on Wednesday. But I do know people who went out of there way to do so and I do not for a second believe they did it out of hate for the gay community. They did it to stand for a Christian's right to state their Christian belief. Did some do it as an anti-gay stand? Sure, there will always be those who hate and fear the different. But these aren't the people I am talking about, just those I know personally. I know of at least one person who longs for her gay friends to marry and have the same rights as a straight couple who also steadfastly supports Cathay's right to say what he did and believe as he does. The CFA support for Prop 8 and FotF didn't even enter the equation for her. It was, for her and my other friends, entirely about freedom of religion and freedom of speech, not hate or denying rights. I personally hope that this does not reverse the changes of heart and mind that have occurred since Prop 8. I believe that if Prop 8 had been up on the June 2012 ballot, it would have failed. Now with all the vitriolic talk on both sides, if it were on the November 2012 ballot, I fear it would pass again.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 < I know of at least one person who longs for her gay friends to marry and have the same rights as a straight couple who also steadfastly supports Cathay's right to say what he did and believe as he does.> Then your friends bought into the false narrative than Cathay's free speech rights were in any way curtailed. <The CFA support for Prop 8 and FotF didn't even enter the equation for her. It was, for her and my other friends, entirely about freedom of religion and freedom of speech, not hate or denying rights.> They may be sincere. But they are at the very least misguided. Cathay is free to say what he wants, free to practice whatever brand of religion he wants, and free to donate to whom he wants. But he (or his surrogates) can't expect those choices to be free of consequences when they end up hurting real people in the real world. Many people who opposed interracial marriage also couched it in religious terms ("God did not mean the races to mix" and etc.) and were even sincere in those beliefs, and could perhaps not be called hateful as individuals. Yet the effect was the SAME. I know this very well from my own family, some of whom supported segregation in the 60's. I wouldn't call them hateful people - but they supported a hateful policy. To their credit, most of them get that now. But it's entirely possible to support something hateful without harboring the hate yourself per se. Entirely possible.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 <a href="http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/08/chick-fil-a-kiss-hate-graffiti-vandalized.html" target="_blank">http://latimesblogs.latimes.co...zed.html</a> Another classy move by those opposed to Chick Fil A. Free speech is fine, but again this is crossing the line. Where were you at lunchtime on Wednesday?<< I was with my kids at a community pool. Like I said multiple times in this thread, I do not base where I eat or shop at based on what the company stands for. I support many organizations that are pro gay marriage and I support others that may not be pro gay marriage. I don't care either way. But then again I don't see how Chick Fil A can be held responsible for how a 3rd party charity spends their donations. President Obama has donated money to a church which has a pastor that supports known hate organizations (Reverend Wright) but President Obama should not be held accountable for that, as those are Reverend Wright's views and not his own..
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "But then again I don't see how Chick Fil A can be held responsible for how a 3rd party charity spends their donations." Are you kidding? FOF is not a charity. It is (at best) a political advocacy group, and in reality a designated hate group. Its views are well known, and Cathay can not divorce himself from that hate work if he's going to be a major donor. "President Obama has donated money to a church which has a pastor that supports known hate organizations (Reverend Wrigh" The names of these organizations, please? How much did he contribute and when? Links? I don't think this attempt at false equivalency is going to hold water.
