Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "To me the thought of the universe without God is illogical." I wonder if you would follow that line of thinking if that hadn't been taught to you during your formative years. "But that tightly packed ball of mass and energy had to come from SOMEWHERE. If not God, where?" You seem to be questioning whether anything spontaneous can happen in the universe without a divine hand. Perhaps that's the defining distinction between believers and non-believers.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed. Whatever happened, it was outside the realm of science. Doesn't necessarily need to be divine... maybe it was done by the Magic Pig Wizard. But it is not explainable by current day science. Personally, God makes the most sense to me. YMMV
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The Magic Pig Wizard exists. I found it on the Internets, and the Internets don't lie. <a href="http://www.teen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/pig-wearing-glasses-looking-like-a-wizard-funny.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.teen.com/wp-content...unny.jpg</a>
Originally Posted By mawnck >>The Magic Pig Wizard exists. I found it on the Internets, and the Internets don't lie.<< Dick Cheney isn't on trial here either!
Originally Posted By hopemax > Personally, God makes the most sense to me. YMMV < This is where I get tripped up...if God can do things like create the universe, God must be something too, right? Not a corporeal being, who knows, midichlorians or something we don't have a word for...so where does that come from? And so on...at some point you end up back with something from nothing. And then I give up, declare, "On this I don't know, but it might be nice if something greater than us existed."
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "maybe it was done by the Magic Pig Wizard" No. The Flying Spaghetti Monster on the other hand...
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Does everything posted here need several paragraphs to be explained? Yep, I made a broad generalization, but the point was clearly made. From my view as an atheist a belief in a higher power is completely illogical." And I gave a rebuttal.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <And so on...at some point you end up back with something from nothing.> That's true. This is sort of the ultimate unponderable. If God exists, where did He come from? On the other hand, if only matter exists, where did THAT come from; even if it grew ever more complex, where did the first bits and atoms come from? In both cases, you could say they "always" existed, but there's always a moment in time prior to the one you're fixing in your mind... isn't there? This goes back to the nature of time itself... Stephen Hawking gets into this in "A Brief History of Time," in which he calls looking for the moment of creation "The God Moment" (though not in any sectarian sense) and it remains a mystery. Science can not explain either how something came from nothing, OR how something could "always" exist. If it's a mystery to a mind like Hawking, it's a mystery to me. I don't find either belief or non-belief in God to be inherently illogical. As ecdc points out in #36, believing that certain things in the Bible (or Koran, or Bhagavad Gita or what have you) are literal in the FACE of known science... that is indeed illogical.
Originally Posted By hopemax Now, for where I get tripped up on the science side. Humans have existed for several thousand years, and every time the brightest of the humans have tried to explain the origins of the universe...they've been wrong. But our brightest humans, now, they've got it right? It feels too much like the "door problem" in probability. 1,000,000 doors to choose and we picked the right one. Perhaps we've gotten the physics right. The mechanics of how the process worked to get all the physical particles to where they are now. But to completely understand all of it? I sincerely doubt that we are the brightest humans, and since we're not, we have to had missed something, probably a lot. So back to "I don't know."
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "As ecdc points out in #36, believing that certain things in the Bible (or Koran, or Bhagavad Gita or what have you) are literal in the FACE of known science... that is indeed illogical." And this was the fundamental point being made when I made the broad statement that there is no logic in religion.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Which was countered with: I believe, but I also don't subscribe to any particular religion. But because I've made a conscious decision to believe in God doesn't make me illogical, not by a long shot. Matter of fact, I used logic to get to my belief, so I could turn it around if I wanted. People who don't believe are illogical, but that wouldn't be respectful to their point of view. I believe there will be a next minute, this evening, a tomorrow and a next year, even though they haven't happened yet and therefore aren't real. Can't see it, can't touch it, but it's coming. Matter of fact, since I began this paragraph, some of it is already here. I don't think it's a stretch to assign that thought process to believing in God when coupled with other things I've encountered in my life.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Science has no theories*** Actually, science has a lot to say about it. I could be wrong, but I believe some of the research would fall into the category of "theory" (or at the very least, a number of compelling hypotheses). ***and God is as reasonable an explanation as any*** I never understood this leap of logic (it's fine as a leap of faith, of course)...why would some incredibly powerful, single supreme being be "as good an explanation as any"? It's really full of holes, and there are tons of other possibilities that make more logical sense (a RACE of powerful beings, for example, makes a lot more sense than just one omnipotent dude). It very well may be true, but I don't understand the whole "If you really think about it, it's the idea that makes the most sense" argument.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>every time the brightest of the humans have tried to explain the origins of the universe...they've been wrong.<< That was before the advent of modern science, however. When someone says, "Well scientists used to think the earth was flat!" well, not really. That wasn't science. Science is a process; it's not a particular field or an individual study. As a process, it works remarkably well, and it's taken us farther than humans have ever gone. Individual scientists will be flawed. Individual studies will be flawed. My alma mater still occasionally suffers the embarrassment of jumping the gun on announcing the discovery of "Cold Fusion." Publication bias is a problem for scientific journals. But as a process that unfolds over time, science works.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck My take? I figure atheism is the factory default setting that we come with at birth. That is our natural predisposition until we are force fed religion. I am simply going with that. I think it is the brave and intelligent stance. If I were forced to choose though, it would be Buddhism.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I figure atheism is the factory default setting that we come with at birth.>> I'm not so sure. Virtually every culture I'm aware of has come up with the idea of some type of supreme being or beings (even if they are man-made idols). Apparently the idea of there being something greater than us out there fulfills some deep-seated human need. That doesn't mean it is correct, but I don't know that it is the "default setting". By the way... I don't believe that the Bible is literally accurate. My guess is that a minority of Christians do.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I figure atheism is the factory default setting that we come with at birth.<< Nope. If interested, read this: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-Righteous-Mind-Politics-Religion/dp/0307455777" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/The-Righ...07455777</a>
Originally Posted By Tikiduck May I suggest spending some time with Bertrand Russell? I know it is a long video, but it is time very well spent. <a href="http://youtu.be/0F6J8o7AAe8" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/0F6J8o7AAe8</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Virtually every culture I'm aware of has come up with the idea of some type of supreme being or beings (even if they are man-made idols)*** That certainly seems true, and it's one of those things that makes me stop short of dismissing the whole thing as "ridiculous" without taking human nature into account as a valid factor...OBVIOUSLY most people believe...either because it's really logical to do so, OR because human nature steers us in that direction...either way, it's something that shouldn't be casually dismissed imho. (even if I don't agree with that vast majority of folks)
