Originally Posted By Manfried I'm not "stuck" here Kennesaw. Just watching the idiocy that is California and knowing it is a boondoggle that will last forever. It will eventually be built of that I am sure. Its too big a project that politicians won't get on board, just so they can get their share for whatever business or union is backing them. But its going to cost a whole lot more than they're even saying now. Now Roadtrip, you want it so bad, then you put your money where your mouth is and buy the bonds they will float for them. And don't suddenly weasel out of it by asking for the prospectus. You want it so bad, you look for the prospectus.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA Oh Manfried -- ye have little faith. Did you not sit spellbound at the wonder of "Golden Dreams"? The magical spirit of Califia is still alive and well here in California. And the brilliant minds who are daring to take a step toward high speed rail, should have a place along side other 'crazy' people like Bill Mulholland, Louis B. Mayer, Steve Jobs and yes, Mr. Walter Elias Disney. Fly! Spirit of Califia! Fly!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Manfred, you are bloody broken record. To get public goods it is already being paid for ,and the us has some of the lowest taxes in the civilised world. I wish the us would have a federal sales tax, and a proper income tax, and provide good public services like social medicine, quality education and a decent, environmentally sustainable transport infrastructure. Living in exile, Dave.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Jim, thank you. I was about ready to fly with a tirade that was likely to get me banned. Your timing is impecable. What I used to love about the spirit of America and California. I am tired of right wing morons turning the us into a 3rd world country.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA Well, davewasbaloo, my post is dripping with sarcasm and meant to be silly, but I'm glad I talked you off the ledge, as it were. Living in the Central Valley has been -- educational -- to be sure. A much, much different environment than living in L.A. I'm not sure I like it.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo The america I was raised to admire built the transcontinental railroad, the hoover damn, created NASA, the new Deal, created amazing things that drove America forward for the right reasons.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Agreed, I grew up in Italia, though we ran away frequently to the family homes in the Bay Area as often as we could.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I am tired of thee ignorance. The lack of knowledge about how tough government programmes are to run. How many clearances you need to get, the navigating through a minefield of contradictory legislation, the duty of care companies do not have, failure is not an option. And just as manfred hates armchair imaginneers, I hate the way people make such bogus statements. I am ok with government programmes generating revenues, but their main priority is delivering public goods. I hate the who selfish consumerist behaviours I see lately. Profit should not be a prime motivation. For government it should be promoting the common good, caring for it's people, and people paying their share through taxes, but where we make through people do not slip through the net.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo But it is threads like this that makes me think why bother? Maybe I should be a selfish nimbly asshole and let the western world become more like the wild west and Africa. That seems to be what the moon bats want.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo The amount of hard work and dedication and endless hours to try to make something great and the public are never satisfied. And yet the costs are much lower often than if it was private enterprise as the focus on internal provision is getting the job done, not making a profit. We commission external firms as it supports the economy and in theory the prices are driven down, but this adds cost. Public sector agencies are not free to buy from who they want. They are legislatively bound to buy from organisations who are in line with policies (eg fair trade, local sourcing, 0 based carbon emissions) the same accountabilities are not there for private enterprise. Then there has to be robust processes to ensure back handers do not take place. This too is costly. We have to consult with the public much more too. All because we have to justify public funds are being spent well. And yet, if we really saved costs, and worked like a private firm, then government would be accused of being totalitarian. You cannot have it both ways. And if it is down to private finance, then there is no social equity or mobility.
Originally Posted By ADMIN <font color="#FF0000">Message removed by an administrator. <a href="MsgBoard-Rules.asp" target="_blank">Click here</a> for the LaughingPlace.com Community Standards.</font>
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<And Acela is a very good example of how to do a project like this well, but it's also not really high-speed rail. It's more of a fancy express train.>> Acela hits 150 mph. When it was introduced it was the 4th fastest train in the world. It is also very different from "other" Bullet trains in that it is entirely constructed of steel and not aluminum like all other Bullet trains. Acela was intentionally built like a normal heavy train. All other Bullet trains are built to be extremely light weight. This is why it takes 3 miles for the Acela train to make an emergency stop when at full speed. <<They added electric service to the corridor and replaced a lot of track, but they didn't do much to modify the existing alignment. Perhaps widening a curve here and there to allow faster speeds, but staying in the existing right-of-way.>> Yes, all those things were done. And yes the Acela is running on preexisting track ( all upgraded on concrete pads to smooth the ride ). But because of this the Acela "tilts" into the curves so it can maintain those highspeeds even in curves ( think TestTrack). The proof is that the Acela can do the trip from Boston to DC in 7 hours. Just read this: ((Plans have been prepared for a $117 billion (2010 dollars) project to reduce New York-Washington time to 96 minutes and Boston-New York to 84 minutes.[2][3])) Fast enough for you?
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom << I am tired of right wing morons turning the us into a 3rd world country.>> Hey! I'm a right winger and I'm for this! And so far I think I have done a pretty good job of explaining why High Speed rail makes sense. All roads lead to Rome.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I guess the important thing here is that not all Bullet trains are the same. The Acela is an example of a specific train designed to be running in a specific area. Yes, there are currently restrictions to it's speed. All in CT, NY and NJ. Those restrictions exist: 1)in the case of CT, because the tracks are so close to each other the trains pass 10" from each other, so no "tilting". 2) South of NY the Acela can only travel at a top speed of 135 mph. 3) NJ's overhead catenary system needs to be upgraded ( they are using old overhead catenary from the 1950s and even though the Acela could safely travel this section at 150 mph it is not allowed under Federal Laws ). Just read this bit the time between Boston to DC is 6 hours and 36 minutes.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom All in all, it is a very nice train. I have never riden it. Family members and friends have. They love it! I've seen it, driven along side it till it dashes out of sight. It is a very nice train. And it is profitable, Amtrak says 37% of their riders along that route are taking the Acela. The normal trip time for Amtrak from Boston to DC is 8 hours. I'm proud to say that MA and RI have done their thing to upgrade the rail and are the ONLY locations where the Acela can go 150 mph. And lets face it the Acela isn't in MA or RI for that long a time, they are just blurs on the side of the track. The longest streches are in CT and NJ and those states need to get their collective act together. So the Acela is an example of a specific bullet train, specifically built to run along a very specific route, in a specific area that is multi jurisdictional and multi state. And it is running! Like I said, MA and RI did their thing. We didn't just give up. And anytime CT, NY and NJ want to be part of the team and allow some upgrades they are welcome to get "onboard".
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I founda video that pretty much says it all: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU2JSHPx8dQ&feature=relmfu" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...e=relmfu</a>
Originally Posted By Manfried All good points Kennesaw. So maybe a workable solution is to find a way to get this done without the onus of so much government interference. Perhaps one of those quasi-governmental agencies would work to get the bullet train off the ground without all the "nimby" interference as the other posters put it. At least this part of the discussion is intelligent. Could the route you discuss be modified with a high speed train or one built beside it so that the existing service does not have to be shut down while building the other one? Would it mean some eminent domain along the route?
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Manfried, I'm not sure if your talking about the proposed Bullet train in CA or the Acela. In terms of the Bullet train in CA, I would go along with the proposed plan to build a section of it first. But, I would do a section that makes sense. So far there are two proposed sections that make sense; SF to San Jose or LA to where ever! Or do both! Any one who wants this has to put the CA Bullet train somewhere where it will be successful ( that means popular, will be used, and is likely to turn a profit ). In terms of the Acela. Initially they were three Amtrak train stations in RI. RI shut down one station to bring their total to two Amtrak stations. A concession RI had to make was to have one station serviced by the Acela ( Providence Station ). RI had to straighten out some tracks along the route the problemic track was in Providence which also required moved the Providence Amtrak station. And although Amtrak is Federal and they they pretty much do what they want. The proposed station was to go in the park at the base of RI's state house. Fortunately for the Feds RI was onboard and went along with the plan. Had RI not been on board I think the state would have seceded from the Union. Taking out part of the city is one thing, taking out the state house lawn is another. Amtrak is limited on where they can run rains in Providence because Providence is partially built over water. The widest bridge in the world is in Providence,RI because it "is Providence,RI". So anyway RI got a new underground Amtrak train station which we love. The old trainstation is now home to several upscale restaurants ( Capital Grill ). The problem with CT is that it is a pretty wide state by New England standards and takes 4 hours to drive accross ( hense the 3 Acela stops ). CT still have places where roads transverse the Amtrack track. I think CT finally installed crossing arms at all Amtrak crossings. As that video I posted shows all of that needs to be progressively taken out and bridges put in. Also the many of the Amtrak stations in CT need to be rebuilt since the only thing seperating the people from a train speeding at 150 mph is a yellow line. And the tracks need to be further apart. Probably wouldn't hurt to put in another set of tracks so you can have one set of tracks dedicated just for the Acela trains. That all takes right of way if you got it. There isn't much you can do when the tracks are alongside and ocean or a river ( Thames; pronounced THAMES and not TAMES like in England ). So lots of work to be done in CT. NJ on the other hand is easier, lots of track, lots of long, long streches of straight aways. Apparently all they need to do there is install new overhead catenary system. AND the Aceala line needs to be pushed down to Richmond, VA and points south. So still lots to do, it is an ongoing thing. In my opinion the Acela will not be compatible with whatever CA comes up with. Since the Acela is a steel and heavy train and normally Bullet trains are light weight and made out of aluminum, the Acela requires 3 miles of track to make an emergency stop while traveling at 150 mph. Lighter trains can stop in less distance. I would think that CA would want a shorter distance emergency stop in case of earthquakes. Acela is an ICE train and uses "tilting" to acheive greater speeds. This allows the Acela to acheive high speeds on the preexisting track lines. If CA is going to build from scratch, they can pretty much make sure their Bullet trains won't be making tight turns or curves. The Acela can handle greater speeds in excess of 150 mph as long as it has room to "tilt".
Originally Posted By Manfried Thanks for the info. That high density corridor is an example of where a bullet train would service a very large population. But it also shows the problem with all the different governing bodies.
