Originally Posted By DVC_dad So SPP, I'm just curious if you plan to vote. I'm not asking who you will vote for.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad oh but to prevent bad form, you may answer however you like, or not at all...
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Off topic, but good to see you back DVC_dad! P.S. Maybe you can get that vbdad guy to come back too...
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>tell me , Why do you support him? And spare all the "lesser of 2 evils" and the "its all about change" bunk.<< I am actually happy, for the most part, to have any of the three be president. I think all three will offer a chance for some fresh air to clear out the stench this administration has left in teh White House. So, for once, this isn't a "lesser of two evils" decision for me. That in itself is refreshing. I think Hillary would be a capable leader. But realistically, I just don't think she is electable, for the reasons I have already given. Certain people are divisive, and right or wrong, she is a divisive figure. Some of that is her own fault, much of it is not. Like just about everyone, I have great respect for McCain's service to this country. I was a supporter of him back in 2000, and still wish he had won. Even though in this election he is not my first choice, I won't be upset should he win. I admire him for crossing party lines when it makes sense. I don't like the pandering he has done to the religious right in this campaign, and I disagree strongly with him on the war in Iraq. But I also believe that with the campaign behind him, he would return to form as one who can unite and reach for reasonable compromises to make things happen. We'll see. Which brings us to my choice, Barack Obama. I think what many politicians really get in terms of "experience" is beholden to lots and lots of corporate and special interest lobbyists. I have no delusions that Obama has none of those. But of the three, I believe he is the least beholden to those special interests. Every so often, we get a chance for a bit of a fresh start, and I think some of Obama's "unknowns" are actually a positive. I am looking forward to having someone who can inspire Americans to think outside themselves -- it's been a long time since we have had that. And to me, he brings the right mix of Hillary's idealism and McCain's ability to unite, so, that's why I like him best. >>Am I deluded because I don't support him?<< I don't know. Why don't you support him? You made the comment about Obama's "real self" which suggests you know something we don't about him. What is it?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan And this is a bit of a silly thing, but i do appreciate stuff like Obama not wearing the flag pin all the time, and not crumbling when asked about that. one of the things this administration has done is make it somehow manditory to do these empty gestures of literally wearing one's patriotism on one's sleeve (or lapel) as if that has a damn thing to do with how patriotic someone is. Sometimes Obama wears the pin, sometimes he doesn't. Good for him. It's that sort of empty-headed pandering nonsense that disgusts me about the Bush administration, and one of the many reasons I'll be celebrating wildly the day out next president is sworn in. Our long national nightmare will be (mostly) over. Bonus: No matter who wins, the neocons will lose. They failed us miserably. They ought to be ashamed, but they have no shame.
Originally Posted By ecdc Post 44 sums up my own feelings perfectly. I genuinely understand concerns over Obama's lack of experience. But while some people see him as a Carter, I see him as a potential Lincoln or Kennedy. No, I don't think he'll be as great as a President as Lincoln - that's not what I mean. But I do think he may be the inexperienced guy who comes in when the nation is in crisis and surprises people with his leadership and ability. This strikes me as one of those times when a lack of Washington experience can only be a good thing. And like 2oony, I won't be voting for McCain, but he may surprise us as well. I'm excited to go to the polls this year.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<It's that sort of empty-headed pandering nonsense that disgusts me about the Bush administration, and one of the many reasons I'll be celebrating wildly the day out next president is sworn in.>> But hey... W's given up playing golf while the Iraq war is being fought. Surely you don't think that is empty-headed pandering... Hmmmm... actually, I guess it is...
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>But hey... W's given up playing golf while the Iraq war is being fought. Surely you don't think that is empty-headed pandering...<< Certainly not. It's that sort of deep, personal sacrifice that will be the legacy of this administration.
Originally Posted By mele <<W's given up playing golf while the Iraq war is being fought. Surely you don't think that is empty-headed pandering...<< It's very thoughtful of Bush to do this. I'm sure it's bringing much comfort to the loved ones of fallen soldiers.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "So SPP, I'm just curious if you plan to vote. I'm not asking who you will vote for." "oh but to prevent bad form, you may answer however you like, or not at all..." No need for further snippiness. You're the one that interjected Obama's real self, then told us to spare you on the answers. Yeah, I am going to vote, even though though I'll have reservations about whoever it is. So for me, sorry, it is the lesser of evils.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad LOL. You know, sadly I'm in that boat myself, and to really make it hard, McCain is not my first choice. Where is the conservative candidate? Oh wait, is it the new Libertarian?
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Off topic, but what's really sad is W had so many chances, challenges, opporunities to go down as one of the greatest, but he fizzled. Newculer on the google internets, OMG
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Off topic, but what's really sad is W had so many chances, challenges, opporunities to go down as one of the greatest, but he fizzled." Except for some old timers here, probably not too many people here would remember I was one of the few people defending Bush, even after the invasion. My main line of reasoning was his presidency really never had a chance to get off the ground, that his was a presidency of one crisis after another. I got into it with gadzuux and another poster no longer here named TikiDude quite often. Over time though, I became thoroughly repulsed by everything Bush. There was one episode that pushed me over the edge. When it became known our soldiers were dumpter diving for body armor I no longer could support the war effort. It was obvious to me there was no real planning, no foresight, and that the soldiers were merely pawns in some other objective Bush must have had. There were already more than a few seeds of doubt planted by other things, but that did it. When I became a critic, I was no longer an ally of beaumandy, which explains why he loves me so much to this day.
Originally Posted By mele I'm not so sure there will ever be a presidential candidate that we won't have some reservations about voting for. Was it really ever "easy" to vote for candidates? If it was, I think we're beyond it these days. Mis-trust has seeped into everything.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 <<W's given up playing golf while the Iraq war is being fought. Surely you don't think that is empty-headed pandering...<< That;s great considering I am giving up spending time with my wife and kids while the Iraq War is being fought. Glad to see that the President is making an equal sacrifice.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Except for some old timers here, probably not too many people here would remember I was one of the few people defending Bush, even after the invasion.<< As was I, I am sorry to admit. And for many of the same reasons, I eventually switched sides like SPP, ecdc and a majority of Americans. Contrary to what this administration would have people believe, we don't hate our troops or wish them failure. What we hate is this one-dimensional foreign policy, half-baked at best, that has left the troops largely high and dry and in a hell of a situation. It's cost lives and a lot of money and there's no end in sight. But you know what? I do understand, sort of , what the president was getting at with the golf comment. He gets that it would look bad for the families of troops to see him out on the links while their loved ones are risking their necks for his war. But it is yet again the clumsy, dopey way he says this stuff that once again invites ridicule. I do not believe that he truly equates that giving up golf is equal to a military person's sacrifice. But man alive, I have never in my 45 years seen a president that so frequently jams his own foot in his mouth the way this president does. Everyone says something dumb or unintentional from time to time, but Mr. Bush abuses the privelidge.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 But it is yet again the clumsy, dopey way he says this stuff that once again invites ridicule. I do not believe that he truly equates that giving up golf is equal to a military person's sacrifice. << But that was the impression he gave. I basically took his comments as "You make sacrifices, same as me" I was offended by his comments as were quite a few people I know.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Yes, I totally understand why, William. I don't blame you or anyone who has truly had to sacrifice one bit for being offended by the comment. It is odd that on the one hand he understands that playing golf would leave a bad impression, but on the other he doesn't understand that clumsily suggesting giving up golf is any kind of sacrifice would likewise leave a poor impression. Perhaps he really is after the Lowest Approval Ratings Ever trophy now. I mean, now he seems determined to tick off military families and many of them were his last island of support. It's crazy.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan And speaking of sacrifice, in any war worth fighting in the past, all Americans were asked to sacrifice. That's another thing this administration failed at -- attempting to make this war unfelt here at home in any way. It truly bothers me -- sure I can send a care package to a military unit, that's fine, but is that it? That's all that is asked of us here at home? That sucks. If anyone brought up the hardships on the troops, many of the presidents supporters would say "Well, they volunteered" as if that means anything goes. It's been painful for this country for so many reasons. And all the while, anyone saying it's wrong to treat the people and the troops in this way gets called unpatriotic and compared to Nazi appeasers. It's completely upside down, and less and less folks are buying it, thankfully. But my God, at what a cost.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 If anyone brought up the hardships on the troops, many of the presidents supporters would say "Well, they volunteered" as if that means anything goes.<< I think that is what has made me so disillusioned about this whole thing. People justify 3, 4, even 5 deployments by saying to us in the military "You should have known that when you signed up". I signed up in 1996, and many others signed up then too, and nobody would have believed that we would be on a year on, year off rotation on basically a permanent basis. At what point does the military fall apart because enough personnel have said "enough" and don't reenlist or join. I have talked to some guys in who have served 14 years, just 6 years before retirement and they are planning on leaving the army because they don't want 3, possibly 4 more deployments, which is how things are looking right now. I have 8 years left and am seriously considering leaving, even though it will cost me major money in retirement. The problem is, there is no good way out of Iraq at this point, we are boxed in a corner and any decision we make will have costly reprucusions.
