Originally Posted By Mr X ***Unfortunately the Resort Line made it much more apparent - particularly the stretch from TDS to Resort Gateway - being able to see the Chiba infrastructure just takes you out of the Resort. I always wondered what it would be like to only be able to see "inside" the resort (i.e. completely black out the right hand side in the direction of travel) - only being able to see TDR **might** work....*** Nah...I think there's just not much you can do there if you choose to have a monorail...it's nice that they have it, but it's a major spoiler from pretty much all directions when you ride the thing. I think the Japanese term is "shoganai". ***Sadly not - especially as the flat straight wall continues right through Port Discovery. I guess the road and the Resort Line put paid to any other options.*** Lee, you *never* noticed the exit "gate" for a ship to sail through? As to the road and monorail, they did a good job of keeping that out of sight from inside the park. While in some cases you tend to "ignore the obvious" when it's a park feature you like, I think in this case you go beyond reason in pointing out negative stuff that is pretty well done and cleverly covered up. I'm not quite sure what else they could've done with it to satisfy you, my guess is nothing would've been sufficient. ***Wow - really? Architecturally they are so distinct - Fantasyland is so rural and medieval - there are imperfections everywhere as it is supposed to be hand-built. Lots of wood and craftmanship. Tomorrowland has cleaner lines and is more urban. I just can't grasp your argument there.*** I guess I just don't see what you see in this case. Both seemed rather sterile, corporate, small, and theme-park-ish...very cartoony and not very interesting. I only visited once though, shortly after opening. Perhaps now with Small World and other Tomorrowland stuff having been opened up it might be somewhat different. But my impression was DEFINITELY there wasn't a heck of a lot of difference between Fantasyland and Tomorrowland. Such that when I stood at the border and looked both ways, they looked much the same to me (can't say that for ANY other Magic Kingdom border off the top of my head...even in the tiny confines of Anaheim, for example).
Originally Posted By Mr X I leave room for the possibility that I might have missed something or whatever...I'm not saying that I caught all the park has to offer or that I went in with a completely unbiased perspective...HOWEVER, I will say that when I visited DCA for the first (and only) time, I WAS quite biased based on so many LP conversations and I found myself not particularly surprised by the place, but pleasantly happy with the experience I had. HKDL came later, and if anything I *was* rather of an open mind since I'd heard so many negatives about DCA and yet came away from there having had an enjoyable time...in Hong Kong's case though, I WAS disappointed...of course, the severe lack of attractions was a big negative, but the homogenization of the lands bugged me even more (that is NOT a problem with DCA, funny enough to say)...I really did feel like it was a corporate vision of what a "Disneyland" should be...and I was bothered by the lack of, I dunno, differentiation? Uniqueness? Relative "realness"? Hard to put into words. But that IS what bothered me about HKDL and that, even more than a lack of rides, made me come away feeling pretty negative about the place. I left after less than half a day, and rather disgusted with the place.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<word of caution........better schedule in some sights around Kowloon and Hong Kong proper like the giant Budha, Victoria Peak tram ride, harbor cruise and/or gold shopping+buying 'cause HKDL, as nice as it is, is still a 60-75% day park especially considering how empty it tends to be.>> I have done all of the above ... and this is a business trip for me ;-) ... but I do disagree that HKDL isn't a day park. If I can find enough to do in a day, I'd guess most others would too. For instance, in my full day's visit (with no wait ever longer than 20 minutes if that), I didn't see the 'regular' day parade. I didn't see the High School Musical show. I didn't ride the Carousel ... or Dumbo ... or the Mad Tea Party ... or the RR ... or the Main Street Vehicles or the Autopia ... and I certainly didn't spend time at the Fantasy Gardens meet and greet. Now, I did have a full serve lunch ... and I did shop. And I did take two trips on Space Mountain and do both haunted houses twice. But my point is, I left plenty of things I could have done. And I got there at 11 a.m. (park opened at 10:30) and didn't leave until minutes before 11 p.m. closing. So as attraction light as the park may be, HKDL is easily a full day park UNLESS you're the type of person who just runs from attraction to attraction. If that's the case, I could see someone being able to do the whole park in 3-4 hours (skipping shows and everything that isn't a ride).
Originally Posted By Mr X ***So as attraction light as the park may be, HKDL is easily a full day park UNLESS you're the type of person who just runs from attraction to attraction*** Hate like heck to disagree with ya Spirit, but no. It's not a full day park and never has been (maybe when they open the new stuff, hopefully). I recall SuperDry back in the day writing about how he actually TICKED OFF A CHECKLIST from the guidemap, making sure he'd experienced each and every attraction (even the B.S. ones like city hall and tiki torches or whatever), and found himself finished with hours to spare. Since then, they've added a COUPLE of attractions (crappy ones, to say the least), and that might add a bit under an hour to the stay but still... When you see Tokyo, you'll get it...a "full day park" doesn't include doing special event stuff too, the fact that you had to add the haunted houses speaks volumes.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<While I do agree that in many cases, HKDL comes out ahead, overall it is still severly lacking. In HK, there is a certain element of fantasy in every single attraction. Yah, it's fun, but after a while it all starts to feel the same. The fantasy stylings of Tomorrowland and Adventureland have a slightly different flavor than Fantasyland, but at the end of the day it feels like a lot of very similar experiences. I didn't really pick up on that much on my first visit, but I really felt it earlier this summer. It's all very well executed, but it all kind of feels the same after a while.>> I know what you are saying ... and I kind of agree to some extent. I think that's what you get when you put a park together like this ... yet, it doesn't stick with me as much as it does with you. I think another factor here is Disney felt it needed to force-feed a very cosmopolitan/wordly crowd on the 'brand', so some things feel forced to an extent. <<On the other hand, MK has a lot of variety of stuff, but it's not necessarily a very good execution. The lands still have a pretty unique feeling, though that has been lost some over the years. The park has slow-moving attractions, show-base attractions, a few thrills, and everything in between. There are a lot of variety from AA's, films, boats, cars, and coasters, and the park just has a certain texture to it.>> I'd simply argue that the lands have lost all meaning in FLA. It really has become Phil Holmes Magical Disney Character Park. All the layering and texture is gone ... whether it's unique shopping or live entertainment or even TREES ... so much just keeps disappearing and the park is falling apart too. That's why you see all those magical scrims. <<While I agree that they are definitely making a ton of progress at HKDL, a lot of that just further reinforces the plastic-feel that the park already has. I've never been there at Halloween, so I suspect that it feels a little different at that time, but it just feels like a factory-produced theme park. Strangely, the trees growing in didn't make that feeling go away, like it has at MK. What's there is very well done, but it still isn't enough>> Well, it really was a factory-produced theme park. And even if the 60% of the opening day roster of attractions hadn't been cut, I suspect the vibe would still be similar. But I don't feel the park is plastic. It feels very real. And the landscaping has just grown in so nicely ... you can almost miss the two giant cranes building at HKDL (good thing they don't have eight giant cranes like they do at OP!!!) "True quality entertainment ... E-ticket caliber stage shows ... live bands ... music etc." <<I couldn't agree more. The shows are really what makes the park stand out. They may not be entirely unique in the world of Disney, but they are done at a level that is beyond the other versions.>> As far as I am concerned, they are two E-Ticket experiences, each with almost a 30-minute run time. Golden Mickeys is only going to be familiar to someone if they have taken a DCL cruise (and only certain ones ... I never saw it on my cruises). FotLK is certainly familiar to anyone who has seen DAK's version, but this show is worlds better. <<(Sadly, and ironically, the show-based Jungle Cruise is just painful there)>> I think it all depends on your skipper. I just had one of my best JC experiences ever anywhere. But I also had an awful one where my skipper had a passing ability to deliver an English show and then something strange happened and we were backed up and stuck in the headhunters scene for 10 minutes followed by no effects in the very cool final fire/water battle. So ... it depends.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORWEN: And sometimes I think they really need to turn down the volume on those haunted houses! It's enough to make a witch go deaf when the volume is that loud!!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I agree with Ferret, if anything that cartoony vibe bothered me even more than the SEVERE lack of attractions.>> I don't get the whole 'toony vibe thing except in Fantasyland (obviously) and Tomorrowland to a great extent. <<OTOH, agreed with Spirit that the cast is wonderful, the location idyllic, and the overall entertainment offerings are quite good.>> Always good to agree with the Spirit! ;-) <<To barboy, I would have to say that in terms of sheer perfection DisneySea's brilliant use of Tokyo Bay beats HK by a nose...it just makes it feel as though the park goes on forever. The mountain backdrop is a very close second place, however. >> And I hope to be able to see Tokyo Bay by mid-December!
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORWEN: Speaking of depends, Spirit, I know a certain nasty old biddy who could use a whole crate full...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Spirit - you rabble-rouser.>> Hey, Lee, I love to rouse the rabble ;-) Besides, the LP has been very, very good to me. What kind of member would I be if I couldn't stir things up from Asia? <<The issue is that both parks are at complete different points in their life cycles. MK is a mature park that is deemed to have sufficient experiences.>> I'd phrase that differently (even though I agree with your point). I'd say Disney knows in FLA that it can get away with letting the MK grow stale and tired, so long as it tosses out words like dreams, wishes and magic ad nauseum and keeps building timeshares. BTW, I LOVE the fact HKDL is a DVC free zone ... when I showed a CM some DVC stickers that had gotten stuck in my travel bag, I loved the fact she was clueless as to what DVC was/is. <<HKDL is just five years old and was built initially like a Disneyland Starter Kit - it is effectively a start-up.>> I love that. I used to call it Disneyland Lite, but then I fell in love with the place so I stopped calling it names! <<As I'm always banging on it all comes down to menu planning. It isn't just a question of the Opening Day roster (which was light) but a failure to appreciate that seasonal events could partially compensate for that lacking attraction count - increasing the perceived VfM to guests. It should have gone all out on Halloween, Christmas, Easter and summer event immediately - these are all cost-effective compared with the alternatives (permanent attractions). Halloween has finally put the park on the map in HK and the mainland but it shouldn't have taken 4 years to get there (really last year was the first big Halloween spectacle although this year's event is even bigger).>> Agreed. Seasonal offerings certainly ADD considerably to the value of a visit and they should have been there from 2005. But I also wonder how much of the Halloween success was in response to Ocean Park, which has a hugely successful (although more UNI-like ... they actually have an attraction where they put you in a coffin and simulate cremation ... all sponsored by Yahoo too!) hard-ticket event (now in its 10th year). I do know I haven't ever seen HKDL open past 9 p.m. and most of October has seen nightly 11 p.m. closings ... hell, the park closes at 9 on Christmas and NYE, so obviously this event is drawing folks in. <<I continue to be bemused that MK has virtually no entertainment offerings of note now. Entertainment venues like Fantasyland Theater (DL) and Showbase (TDL) aren't world class venues but at least they are able to host permance-based shows when management opt to do so. HKDL and DLP have excellent show venues (especially DLP that has 4 major venues) and these are important parts of a guest's experience in an MK-style park. They are as important as any other element - they encourage folks to spend longer in the park (read: spend more) - Golden Mickeys is a near 30-minute show - that is more than 3 go-arounds on iasw. I just never understand MK management's reluctance to add a decent theater venue (the closest we got was a Hyperion-style building that was nearly approved for the 20k lagoon space - management refused to spend $30m on it in the end). >> It is pathetic that MK has no venue for real show ... the castle stage is OK for small-scale foamhead action, nothing more. The Galaxy Palace (AKA the management parking lot) wasn't much and now is history. <<HKDL has always been a beautiful park - I'd argue that its setting is far superior to TDS - but there was no credible plan for post-TL'06 (the triumvirate of UFO Zone, Stitch Encounter and Autopia). It is a nonsense that the park didn't have a proper 5- or 10-Year Plan to add experiences. Band-Aid fixes like the Toy Story Zoetrope and the coach-cum-Turtle Talk will never drive attendance.>> I have no clue what Disney was thinking. I still admit, I don't. They are doing things, but it's not going to be enough. Not with what Ocean Park is doing. And I am sure adding a new area to the park based on a 'Polar/Arctic' theme had nothing to do with the fact it was proposed for HKDL. I am also sure the fact they are adding a night-time show that resembles the TDS show that's ending soon is mere coincidence ... same with the Coral Reef type restaurant. Disney's answer? A cheap Toy Story kiddie land and then Grizzly and Mystic Point areas? What about all the alleged space for two attractions in Fantasyland's existing buildings? And an empty castle? And the land Delaney's Pirates expansion was supposed to be built on? I don't want to sound down on HKDL, especially after talking it up here so much, but today's visit to OP and visit with my friend left me wondering if Disney has learned a single thing. Oh ... and any news on Mystic Manor's ride system? <<And if you think that the Halloween Parade is good just wait until you see the 5th Anniversary parade - it is awesome. It is up there with Jubilation! IMHO - huge scale and lots of fun.>> Great to hear. When will it be debutting (since the anniversary was almost two months ago!)?
Originally Posted By leemac <<Great to hear. When will it be debutting (since the anniversary was almost two months ago!)?>> I just got photos of the parade floats through this week as they are still under construction (I'd hoped to get out to the fabricator but doesn't seem likely now). The parade will launch in January and the anniversary will run until December '11. Although it may seem odd that the anniversary is kicking off four months late it does make sense considering how popular Halloween and Christmas are now. I'll be at the park tomorrow night for Halloween itself - no idea what sort of crowds to expect!
Originally Posted By leemac <Lee, you *never* noticed the exit "gate" for a ship to sail through?>> And where in the world do you see "gates" in sea walls? Never. It isn't even remotely realistic. I don't give them a pass for that stretch because the wall is a cop-out - it could have been far cleverer - it is all too simple to just have a plain wall. The "gate" wouldn't never fit the ocean liner anyhow.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I don't get the whole 'toony vibe thing except in Fantasyland (obviously) and Tomorrowland to a great extent*** But that's half the park! As I wrote, Adventureland is more muted, somewhat, but still sort of conforms to the other two lands. And there you have the whole freakin place, sans main street which is an Anaheim facsimile. How you can NOT find the place overtly homogenous is beyond me.
Originally Posted By leemac <What about all the alleged space for two attractions in Fantasyland's existing buildings? And an empty castle? And the land Delaney's Pirates expansion was supposed to be built on?>> The space in the Pooh and PhilharMagic structures is still available for dark rides. No plan to use them at the moment. Same for the castle. There is also space inside the Buzz show building in Tomorrowland. The PiratesLand space is being used - it is the pad being used by Gulch. <<Oh ... and any news on Mystic Manor's ride system?>> No comment - they are continuing to cut the budget for both the Manor and Gulch mini-lands. It is still a moving target - and will be until the show is under construction I suspect.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***And where in the world do you see "gates" in sea walls? Never. It isn't even remotely realistic*** I thought you were against overly realistic theme park stuff...wasn't that one of your chief gripes about DisneySea all along? But since you asked... <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/riverthamesheritageopportunity/_/rsrc/1281793238630/robins-creek-marina/Lock%20gate%20in%20sea%20wall.JPG?height=2297&width=2215" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/r...dth=2215</a> That's the sort of image I always imagined they were going for. Worked fine for me, imagination-wise. I never expected for it to be uber-realistic, I like what they did integrating the bay into the park. Love it, in fact. One of my favorite aspects. YMMV. As far as whether the Columbia would "fit" or not, that's also a matter of accepting the imagineering at face value rather than overthinking it. Sort of like accepting the fact that a mickey mouse shaped loop coaster fits thematically whatsoever in any theme park anywhere.
Originally Posted By leemac Spirit - I also agree that HKDL is a full day park. You can't see all of the shows, attractions, parade and spectacles on even a quiet day. If you only visit Disney theme parks for the attractions then I guess it is feasible but HKDL offers so much great entertainment that the rides themselves are only half the story.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***You can't see all of the shows, attractions, parade and spectacles on even a quiet day*** Completely disagree. And I've never felt that way about any other Disney park I've ever visited, including DCA. I saw essentially the whole place in about 6 hours. I did skip the two stage shows because the timing didn't work, but even adding those two into the mix you've got 8 hours at best. It's a HUGE stretch to call the place a full day park, even now with the addition of a couple of new attractions.
Originally Posted By leemac X - the tag is incorrect on that image. It isn't a sea wall - it is a river wall in the Thames. It is a lock gate that is typical on UK rivers. I also don't "get" that you think that the whole of HKDL is "homogenized" - there are plenty of us that don't agree. Plenty.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I saw essentially the whole place in about 6 hours. >> Bully for you. You must have rushed from attraction to attraction and you missed the two stage shows? And they have added Autopia and Stitch Encounter - both of which have decent lines. We get it - you didn't like HKDL. Thankfully there are plenty of us that do like the park.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>HKDL has always been a beautiful park - I'd argue that its setting is far superior to TDS - but there was no credible plan for post-TL'06 (the triumvirate of UFO Zone, Stitch Encounter and Autopia). It is a nonsense that the park didn't have a proper 5- or 10-Year Plan to add experiences. Band-Aid fixes like the Toy Story Zoetrope and the coach-cum-Turtle Talk will never drive attendance.<<<< So, after this round of expansion, can we expect to see anything else?
