Originally Posted By jonvn "But it wouldn't hurt you to let them believe what they want without badgering them, would it?" They badger me with their beliefs. I find them offensive and primitive. This RC Collins guy running around with his very christian comments. I find them repugnant. Yet, I'm supposed to be quiet and "respect" that. I see no reason to respect something I find morally wrong.
Originally Posted By Mr X I thought the links were interesting, anyway. Never really delved into the why and how of what Jews thought of the messiah before. I'm curious. How do those "Jews for Jesus" people justify things?
Originally Posted By jonvn Jews for Jesus are Christians for Christ. I have no idea how these people justify their ideas. But being Jewish is both a religious and cultural thing. I suspect what they do is simply become christian, yet retain many cultural aspects of being Jewish.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I thought the links were interesting, anyway." I think so, too. Most Jews can easily deconstruct Christianity rather rapidly, but generally don't. The reason is that a couple thousand years of officially sanctioned oppression has made most of them circumspect. The reality is that Christianity was used to control the population for centuries, and Jews understand why most of it is based on stuff that's not true. So what do you do? You keep the people with the information shoved down and hated and maligned. That way you keep your hold on power, and give the people a scapegoat for their miserable lives all at the same time. This is the true legacy of Christianity, and what it means to me. Hatred, oppression, genocide. I'm not all that keen on hearing about how I need to have respect for something that has brought about such things not just to people like me, but other groups as well. I find the vociferous behavior of such a set of beliefs, as I said, repugnant.
Originally Posted By Mr X **You keep the people with the information shoved down and hated and maligned.** Never really thought about the "why" part of the equation before, but that makes sense. Certainly plenty of examples to choose from. Sad.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I find them repugnant. Yet, I'm supposed to be quiet and "respect" that." Any many of us find it repugnant that despite his fervor, you can't respect R.C. Collins as a person and walk away.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Any many of us find it repugnant that despite his fervor, you can't respect R.C. Collins as a person and walk away." Why should I walk away? Why should he get to state his view and I not? Oh, that's right, because you kind of agree with him, and not me, and what it comes down to is that you don't like people saying things you don't agree with. That is precisely how it comes across.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Anyone have any questions about Mormon temple ceremonies please feel free to post them and I will answer. The Mormon temple rituals were all ripped off from Masonic rituals. They are basically the same. It is no coincidence that most early Mormons were Freemasons. The whole secret/sacred argument is to protect the Mormon faithful from exploring where their precious temple rituals came from. Heck, their most sacred symbols are on the front of every Masonic lodge.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Note: Only a small part of the LDS Temple ceremonies are similar to the Masonic rituals. There are several theories as to why this is the case. Churro, I'm politely asking you not to talk about the temple ceremonies in this public forum.
Originally Posted By utahjosh mele, of course I can't stop someone from saying whatever he wants. I'm just making a request, it's up to him if he wants to respect my request or not.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka I realize that but when you do it, you are really enforcing people's beliefs that it's cultish. You can keep the secrecy but don't be surprised or hurt that people are mistrustful of LDS. Right or wrong, by continually asking for secrecy, people will react with suspicion. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways.
Originally Posted By jonvn "The Mormon temple rituals were all ripped off from Masonic rituals. " Oh, is that right? That's very interesting. Those are secret, too. I find it even more interesting that Josh is telling someone to not talk about something. Secret rituals indeed. Very cultlike, and very disturbing, actually. The more I hear about this, the more it does seem that Mormonism really is very much a cult. You don't do these things, and chastise other people like this unless you are in a cult.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <<"The Mormon temple rituals were all ripped off from Masonic rituals. ">> <Oh, is that right?> No, that is not right.
Originally Posted By utahjosh The word CULT as a negative connotation. Tell me ONE THING the LDS church has done that has had a negative effect on this world.
Originally Posted By jonvn Oh, good idea. I did the same and found this: The temple ceremony includes oaths and you're told several ways in which 'god' may "take your life" if you reveal the secrets of the temple. Each member at these ceremonies repeats the hand gestures of god's potential wrath. These include having your throat cut and disembowelment. The participant extends his/her right arm with hand open and thumb extended, then move the extended thumb to just below his/her left ear. Next, in one motion, the extended thumb is drawn across the throat to the right ear "demonstrating how 'god' may take your life if you reveal the first token of the Aaronic priesthood". There are 2 more penalties, for the second token of the Aaronic priesthood and the first token of the Melchizedek priesthood. No penalty is given for the second token of the Melchizedek priesthood, but a warning of it's 'sacredness' is given. After the endowment ceremony, which includes anointing with oil and the giving of a secret name when one goes through the first time, the initiate wears a one piece underclothing called the garment. It has short sleeves, you step in through the neck, and it goes down to the knees. There are symbols on the garment, a compass and a square (one over each nipple of the chest), a small (1/4") slit over the navel and another over the knee. This, you're told, is your protection and all kinds of mythical rumors surround wearing these. This is worn by both men and women. In the Mormon temple wedding ceremony, the man and the woman are joined "for time and eternity". The woman, during the ceremony, must tell the man what her temple secret name is. He does not tell her his. It is by this name, according to the Mormons, that the man will resurrect her IF she's faithful. In Mormon heaven #1, men will have multiple wives and create worlds. These wives will make spirit children and work in the heavenly kitchens under their husband's direction (he is 'god' after all!). In the endowment ceremony, the men sit on one side and the women sit on the other side (of the room). The first oath is for the women to stand and take an oath to obey their husbands. Next the men stand and take an oath to obey 'god'. You'd love the film they show in the temple for this ceremony. It's of their version of the creation, Adam & Eve who are visited by Satan and also by 3 apostles led by Peter. I'll never forget Satan looking at the audience while the picture darkens except around his eyes. Satan says, "If these people don't live up to the promises made here today, they'll be in my power." Quite dramatic. They DO use the bee both in temples and it is found at Brigham Young University as well. Also the state police have the beehive on the doors of all their cars. Beehives/bees are found on the doorknobs of temple doors in Salt Lake.
Originally Posted By jonvn "The word CULT as a negative connotation." If your church behaves like a cult, then it is going to be called that, you realize. It doesn't matter whether you do something negative in this world. The People's Temple cult did nothing negative in this world, until it did.
Originally Posted By jonvn Oh, here's more: Baptism is the first ceremony performed in behalf of the dead in the Temple. This is performed in the beautiful baptismal font mounted on the full sized statues of 12 oxen, located in the Temple basement. The Officiator and the patron are in the font dressed in heavy white jump-suits. There are two or more Witnesses observing the procedure. Often a closed circuit TV. is used to project the names of the deceased persons on a large TV. screen. Typically 200-300 baptisms are performed per hour, with LDS teenagers serving as proxies to introduce them into the Temple rituals and vicarious Ordinance work at an impressionable age. The baptismal pronouncement is recited in full for each baptism, and the patron is completely immersed by the Officiator as observed and approved by the two Witnesses. Each patron is then anointed with consecrated oil preparatory to "becoming a King and a Priest (or a Queen and Priestess) unto the Most High God, hereafter to rule and reign in the House of Israel forever." A Temple Worker pours some drops of oil on the top of the patron's head and moistens his fingers in oil and then touches each member of the patron's body as he pronounces a blessing upon it, reaching under the shield to anoint shoulders, back, breast, vitals and bowels, and loins. Two workers then place their hands in the patron's head and one of them pronounces a sealing of the anointing. The patron is then dressed in the "Garment of the Holy Priesthood" as a Temple Worker gives him special instructions regarding the constant wearing of it 24 hours per day throughout his life: "It will be a shield and a protection to you from the power of the destroyer until you have finished your work on the earth, providing you do not defile it, but are true and faithful to your covenants." The worker also gives instructions regarding the secret "New Name" and then whispers the "New Name" to the patron. Anyway, if you really want to know what goes on in the Mormon Temple, you can find many people willing to discuss it.
