Originally Posted By melekalikimaka It's too simple to find many, many stories of girls/women who've been hurt by the actions of LDS. (They're not the only religion where this is true but let's not pretend that it doesn't exist!)
Originally Posted By utahjosh Well, jonvn, I've tried my best to be civil. I've asked for those things not to be discussed in this public forum. Of course anyone could go and find every detail about the Temple online - but I will not be a part of that discussion. I won't be visiting WE on LP anymore. That's it. Anyone wants to talk to me, my email is in my profile.
Originally Posted By jonvn You can also go find out what "pay lae ale" is, too. It's something regarding adam and eve. I didn't read too far into it. And it is also interesting that the temple rituals are so close to masonic ones. Masonry was a very big thing back then. And what better thing to do than to copy them for your rituals, both being secret. Although masonic ritual was first revealed in the early 1700s.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka It's sad that another person simply speaking about the rituals destroys some of the sacredness for you. Don't let other people have that much power over you.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Before I go, 2 things: 1) For those reading - Jonvn's posts about the Temple are NOT completely accurate, and probably come from people with a grudge against the LDS Church. 2) jonvn shows NO respect and NO civility, though he constantly claims different. 3) I know that God lives, I know that Jesus Christ is my Savior. Say what you will, you will not change what I know to be true.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I've asked for those things not to be discussed in this public forum" I'm not a member of your church, and I don't feel that secrets are appropriate. People want to know, and now they do. It's easy to find out. There is a difference between sacred and secret. If something is sacred, you speak of it reverentially. If it is secret, you don't speak of it at all. You won't let people speak of it, even people not members of your own church, that's fine. You've now decided to shun us. Which is another cult like behavior.
Originally Posted By jonvn "For those reading - Jonvn's posts about the Temple are NOT completely accurate" There are numerous sites that same the same thing. "jonvn shows NO respect and NO civility" I've been completely civil towards you. Completely. But no, I don't respect that people want to keep things secret. You are not treating these things as sacred. You are treating them as secrets. I said nothing bad about them, other than simply quoting things on the web that describe them. "I know that God lives, I know that Jesus Christ is my Savior" I'm glad you think so. I'm sure people thought Jim Jones was a great man too, before he killed them all. Now that's slightly less civil, isn't it...
Originally Posted By jonvn To contrast with the secret rites of FreeMasons, you can look at this page: <a href="http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/larson.html" target="_blank">http://www.freemasons-freemaso nry.com/larson.html</a> They are similar in nature. Again, not surprising considering the time line of the creation of the Mormons. Similar rituals to Masons, and similar ideas regarding such things as coffee and other things to not engage in. So it was a product of its time, like most religions are.
Originally Posted By jonvn "It's too simple to find many, many stories of girls/women who've been hurt by the actions of LDS." Well, if you look at the temple ceremony I found, then you will see what an inferior role for women in entails. It really is about one step above Islam in this regard, it sounds like.
Originally Posted By jonvn Oh, and one last thing, if you folks want to baptize me once I'm dead without my permission, I see no problem in finding out about your temple rights and telling people without your permission.
Originally Posted By jonvn Wait, here's another page I found on the Masons, from Evangelicals: <a href="http://www.nireland.com/evangelicaltruth/fmog.html" target="_blank">http://www.nireland.com/evange licaltruth/fmog.html</a> Here is a snippet (and it does seem pretty similar): Freemasonry unveils the mongrel name for this Masonic god in the "Royal" Arch degree of the York Rite. "As we three agree, in peace, love and unity, the sacred word to keep. So we three do agree, in peace, love and unity, the sacred word to search. Until we three, or three such as we shall agree, this Royal Arch Chapter to close." They then reveal, the 'sacred word' - 'Jah-Bal-On.' This is given in low breath and is performed three times by three lecturers, taking turns to pronounce a name each: (1) "Jah" (2) "Bal" (3) "On" (2) "Jah" (3) "Bal" (1) "On" (3) "Jah" (1) "Bal" (2) "On."
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "1) For those reading - Jonvn's posts about the Temple are NOT completely accurate, and probably come from people with a grudge against the LDS Church. 2) jonvn shows NO respect and NO civility, though he constantly claims different." You'll certainly get no argument from most people here, especially me, about point number 2. He prides himself on it. At the same time however, you need to take a step back and realize that your request not to discuss certain things is simply an invitation for some people to do exactly the opposite. Moreover, even those who don't get their kicks rubbing it in your face still have honest concerns about Mormonism and also don't share your fervor. This aspect about not discussing what goes on in the Temple is Exhibit 1. I'm no expert on organized religion by a long mile, but my understanding is most are open about their practices and have no such secrecy. It's hard to imagine what WOULD be secretive, hence the curiosity and questioning. A forum like this is not made of LDS members who share your enthusiasm, especially to the point of not talking about it at all. Once you literally and figuratively try and shut that door, you unwittingly enforce the cult sterotype for the uninitiated.
Originally Posted By jonvn "but my understanding is most are open about their practices and have no such secrecy." That's right. You go to any of the major churches and everything is laid open for you on day one. Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Moslems, it's all right there. There is nothing that can't be discussed or shared. In fact, it is ENCOURAGED. That is how you teach people and show them what you are doing is the "right" way. There are other organizations, though, that DO have secrets. Masons, Mormons, Scientologists, and so on. This is not something that bespeaks of an open and inviting group. It makes it appear that they are ashamed of their beliefs or that they have something to hide.
Originally Posted By ecdc Josh, I'm genuinely sorry you're upset and I hope you will continue to post in WE's. I do think jonvn is just goading you, and it is a bit childish of him. That said, I think your reaction is a perfect example of why people don't buy the "it's sacred, not secret" mantra from Latter-day Saints. If it truly was just "sacred," you would've simply walked away. It's sacred to you and therefore, you don't discuss it outside the temple. But secrecy implies that you want to control other people's ability to discuss it, and that's just what you've done. You can't force sacredness on other people; if they don't think it's sacred, there's little reason for them to treat it that way. The first temple expose appeared in 1846 in the anti-Mormon Warsaw Signal newspaper near Nauvoo. Josh, the ceremony has been readily available to those who have been willing to find it since it's inception. There have always been a stead stream of books, from "Mysteries and Crimes of Mormonism" to the Tanner's publications today. They number in the hundreds. The Internet makes it that much easier. So don't kid yourself that you're somehow protecting a secret that's only now being revealed by online apostates. My advice is that if it really is just sacred, then walk quietly away from these kinds of discussions and let people have at it. You can't control them, but you're treating the temple the way you feel it ought to be treated.
Originally Posted By jonvn No, I'm not goading him. I do think it is rather disgusting that a ritual be secret, and I have no reason to not post the information, freely available anywhere on the net, and what was asked about here on this topic.
Originally Posted By jonvn I mean, it's one thing if HE doesn't want to discuss it, that's fine, but him attempting to forbid others from doing so? No stinking way, and that alone is reason enough to post it.
Originally Posted By Mr X **Churro, I'm politely asking you not to talk about the temple ceremonies in this public forum.** It's one thing for you to say you don't want to discuss it, and even to have your own posts removed or whatever. It's quite another to order someone else not to talk about what they wish on a PUBLIC forum. Jeesh.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka Well, he didn't order Churro to not talk about it. He simply asked.
Originally Posted By Mr X Oh, I see he's gone now anyway. That's too bad. I liked talking with him about this stuff, he was pretty cool about it. Mele, sure sounded like an order to me...I realize he did couch it in polite terms...but to say "now I'm going to ask you nicely..." is pretty much a way to say "do it and I will be pissed". That's my take on it. Oh well.
Originally Posted By jonvn Yes, it was an order. And it was to everyone. Either do what I say, or there will be consequences. And when I didn't do as he said, he ran off. I don't take orders from anyone.
