Originally Posted By u k fan I've mentioned this before, but I will again. I was brought up LDS. Most of my closest family are at church right now and although I haven't attended since my teens I still have very strong links with the church. I have never attended the temple and there's a very good chance I won't ever, although that sadden's me. There are a number of beliefs that the church has that I don't, but this isn't the place to discuss that. I'm telling you this in the interests of full disclosure so that people know where I'm coming from. I have absolutely no problem with people discussing what goes on the temple if it means nothing more to them than the rituals of another religion and I am more than happy for it to be discussed here as anyone with google can find it anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if parts of it were on youtube somewhere. However, since reading the beginning of Jon's post detailing what goes on in the temple (all of which was news to me) I feel awful. I feel like the life has been sucked out of me, I feel shaky. I feel hollow. What this means I don't know. Maybe the Spirit left the room as would be suggested by some. Maybe I've been conditioned to consider these things sacred so having seen some of them this feeling is purely physical. What I do know is that when I came into this thread I was happily singing along to iTunes. Now the room is silent and I feel cold. Right or wrong (and please note I have no issues with people discussing the temple if they're curious) I will most likely be leaving this thread as well now. Whether secret or sacred I have been genuinely affected by what has been written here. Make of that what you will.
Originally Posted By jonvn Oh brother... I happen to think it actually important that these sorts of things NOT be secret. They are not being treated as sacred by anyone here. Not at all. Not UtahJosh or anyone. They are being treated as secrets. And not very well kept secrets. There are dozens of pages that contain this information all over the net. This is just another example of how religion is a destructive force. The Catholics protect childmolesters, the mormons have secrets and will shun, the Jews seal up arabs inside a little ghetto. Yeah, a force for great good in the world. I see that now.
Originally Posted By jonvn Oh, and let's not forget Islam's attempts at killing everyone, and Protestant's wanting to control the politics of this country, and force everyone to abide by their ideas of putting their version of god into our laws. ...
Originally Posted By onlyme "The truth shall set you free" Unfortunately, many do not care about truth, but would rather bury their heads in the sand. Trust me, I'm no atheist. I know what I believe and, if asked, will talk about it. This whole discussion has been, quite, the eye-opener. The last thing I want to do, is to offend anyone, but why would discovering the truth about ones religion, be so horrifying? Isn't it a good thing to know, fully, about your beliefs/religion? I don't know, but I would see it as a wake-up call, to start thinking hard about what I believe, and why.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf The truth shall set you free only if you want to be free. Some willingly choose to be enslaved by their religious beliefs.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Some willingly choose to be enslaved by their religious beliefs." When you have people in the position of trying to tell others how to behave, yes. When you are backed into supporting an organization that has helped child molesters, yes. And when you go around and kill innocent people with suicide bombs for no other reason other than religious insanity, then yes. All three are just the same idea. Taken to the next level in each case. There is simply no justification for any of it.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf Hey jon, I have to disagree with you on one of your earlier posts (not that you're wrong, it's just I see it differently) when you stated that Mormons are Christians because they also believe in Jesus Christ. Christians not only believe Jesus Christ actually lived, but that he was literally god in the flesh, that he taught everything that people need to know to obtain salvation and that he took everyone's sins to the cross where he atoned for all of them. Christians believe salvation (i.e. going to heaven) is based solely on believing in Jeus Christ and accepting him as their savior. Mormons believe Jesus Christ is a separate and distinct god from "God the Father" as is the Holy Ghost. Mormons also believe that Jesus taught rules and temple rituals that people need to practice in order to be saved. Salvation to Mormons does not come from simply believing in Jesus Christ, it comes from performing all of the "works" of Mormonism (Baptism, temple worship, etc.) In Mormonism, believing in Joseph Smith is more imporatant than believing in Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith himself said "I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet ." (History of the Church, Vol 6, p. 408-409) Does this sound like a Christian? Also, I think there are many interesting parallels between Mormonism and Islam. Like Mormons, Muslims also believe that Jesus Christ lived and was inspired of god; however, like Mormons, they beleive what Jesus did was insufficient. Instead, they relied on a superior prophet to reveal the ultimate truth. I think calling Mormons Christian is along the lines of calling Muslims Christian. The difference is that Muslims are a religion that has grown and become one of the main worldwide religions. Mormons have not and they have realized that they need to identify themselves with Christians if they are to survive. I guess my point is that by calling them Christian it plays into their hands. And I don't think it's fair to Christians to have the cultish beliefs of Mormonism attached to their faith. But that's just my opinion....
Originally Posted By jonvn "Christians not only believe Jesus Christ actually lived, but that he was literally god in the flesh, that he taught everything that people need to know to obtain salvation and that he took everyone's sins to the cross where he atoned for all of them. " I would ammend this to put the word "SOME" in front. Some Christians believe in this manner. Maybe most, but not all. "Does this sound like a Christian?" It sounds like an egomaniac who has such a high opinion of himself, that he can start his own religion. Something I've been contemplating doing myself. "I think calling Mormons Christian is along the lines of calling Muslims Christian." Not quite the same. Moslems consider Jesus a prophet, but Mormons consider Jesus a god like being. None of it really matters, as Christianity in general is based on a series of false premises, if you want to base it on the Old Testament. "I guess my point is that by calling them Christian it plays into their hands." I'm not sure whether this is actually any better or worse than playing into the hands of any other religion. None of them are really worth much, and all do a great deal of harm.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<I think calling Mormons Christian is along the lines of calling Muslims Christian.>> Another commonality is that both had their Holy Writ delivered to them by an Angel.
Originally Posted By Mr X **It sounds like an egomaniac who has such a high opinion of himself, that he can start his own religion. Something I've been contemplating doing myself.** Why am I not surprised? **None of it really matters, as Christianity in general is based on a series of false premises, if you want to base it on the Old Testament.** And as the old testament is also a load of historical bunk...make note that Judaism is also worthless.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I am quite keen on the bahai faith myself. It may offend quite a few people as theologically speaking it is sitting on the fence, and to athiests, they will still poo poo it. But I like the tenants of this faith. BAHAISM Bahaism - religion founded in Iran in the mid-19th century by Mirza Hoseyn 'Ali Nuri, who is known as Baha` Ullah (Arabic: "Glory of God"). The cornerstone of Baha`i belief is the conviction that Baha` Ullah and his forerunner, who was known as the Bab, were manifestations of God, who in his essence is unknowable. The principal Baha`i tenets are the essential unity of all religions and the unity of humanity. Baha`is believe that all the founders of the world's great religions have been manifestations of God and agents of a progressive divine plan for the education of the human race. Despite their apparent differences, the world's great religions, according to the Baha`is, teach an identical truth. Baha` Ullah's peculiar function was to overcome the disunity of religions and establish a universal faith. Baha`is believe in the oneness of humanity and devote themselves to the abolition of racial, class, and religious prejudices. The great bulk of Baha`i teachings is concerned with social ethics; the faith has no priesthood and does not observe ritual forms in its worship. The Baha`i religion originally grew out of the Babi faith, or sect, which was founded in 1844 by Mirza 'Ali Mohammad of Shiraz in Iran. He proclaimed a spiritual doctrine emphasizing the forthcoming appearance of a new prophet or messenger of God who would overturn old beliefs and customs and usher in a new era. Though new, Mirza's beliefs originated in Shi`ite Islam, which believed in the forthcoming return of the 12th imam (successor of Muhammad), who would renew religion and guide the faithful. Mirza 'Ali Mohammad first proclaimed his beliefs in 1844 and assumed the title of the Bab (Persian: "Gateway"). Soon the Bab's teachings spread throughout Iran, provoking strong opposition from both the Shi'ite Muslim clergy and the government. The Bab was arrested and, after several years of incarceration, was excecuted in 1850. Large-scale persecutions of his adherents, the Babis, followed and ultimately cost 20,000 people their lives. One of the Bab's earliest disciples and strongest exponents was Mirza Hoseyn 'Ali Nuri, who had assumed the name of Baha` Ullah when he renounced his social standing and joined the Babis. Baha` Ullah was arrested in 1852 and jailed in Tehran, where he became aware that he was the prophet and messenger of God whose coming had been predicted by the Bab. He was released in 1853 and exiled to Baghdad, where his leadership revived the Babi community. In 1863, shortly before being moved by the Ottoman government to Constantinople, Baha` Ullah declared to his fellow Babis that he was the messenger of God foretold by the Bab. An overwhelming majority of Babis acknowledged his claim and thenceforth became known as Baha`is. Baha` Ullah was subsequently confined by the Ottomans in Adrianople (now Edirne, Tur.) and then in Acre in Palestine (now 'Akko, Israel). Before Baha` Ullah died in 1892, he appointed his eldest son, 'Abd ol-Baha (1844-1921), to be the leader of the Baha`i community and the authorized interpreter of his teachings. 'Abd ol-Baha actively administered the movement's affairs and spread the faith to North America, Europe, and other continents. He appointed his eldest grandson, Shoghi Effendi Rabbani (1897-1957), as his successor. The Baha`i faith underwent a rapid expansion beginning in the 1960s, and by the late 20th century it had more than 150 national spiritual assemblies (national governing bodies) and about 20,000 local spiritual assemblies. After Islamic fundamentalists came to power in Iran in 1979, the 300,000 Baha`is there were persecuted by the government. The writings and spoken words of the Bab, Baha` Ullah, and 'Abd ol-Baha form the sacred literature of the Baha`i faith. Membership in the Baha`i community is open to all who profess faith in Baha` Ullah and accept his teachings. There are no initiation ceremonies, no sacraments, and no clergy. Every Baha`i, however, is under the spiritual obligation to pray daily; to fast 19 days a year, going without food or drink from sunrise to sunset; to abstain totally from narcotics, alcohol, or any substances that affect the mind; to practice monogamy; to obtain the consent of parents to marriage; and to attend the Nineteen Day Feast on the first day of each month of the Baha`i calendar. The Nineteen Day Feast, originally instituted by the Bab, brings together the Baha`is of a given locality for prayer, the reading of scriptures, the discussion of community activities, and for the enjoyment of one another's company. The feasts are designed to ensure universal participation in the affairs of the community and the cultivation of the spirit of brotherhood and fellowship. Baha`i houses of worship exist in Wilmette, Ill., U.S.; Frankfurt am Main, Germany; Kampala, Uganda; Sydney, Australia; and Panama City, Panama. In the temples there is no preaching; services consist of recitation of the scriptures of all religions. The Baha`is use a calendar established by the Bab and confirmed by Baha` Ullah, in which the year is divided into 19 months of 19 days each, with the addition of 4 intercalary days (5 in leap years). The year begins on the first day of spring, March 21, which is one of several holy days in the Baha`i calendar. The Baha`i community is governed according to general principles proclaimed by Baha` Ullah and through institutions created by him that were elaborated and expanded by 'Abd ol-Baha. The governance of the Baha`i community begins on the local level with the election of a local spiritual assembly. The electoral process excludes parties or factions, nominations, and campaigning for office. The local spiritual assembly h as jurisdiction over all local affairs of the Baha`i community. On the national scale, each year Baha`is elect delegates to a national convention that elects a national spiritual assembly with jurisdiction over Baha`i's throughout an entire country. All national spiritual assemblies of the world periodically constitute themselves an international convention and elect a supreme governing body known as the Universal House of Justice. This body applies the laws promulgated by Baha` Ullah and legislates on matters not covered in the sacred texts. The seat of the Universal House of Justice is in Haifa, Israel, in the immediate vicinity of the shrines of the Bab and 'Abd ol-Baha, and near the Shrine of Baha` Ullah at Bahji near 'Akko. The members of the Hands of the Cause of God and the continental counselors are appointed b y the Universal House of Justice to propagate the Baha`i faith and protect the community.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "Another commonality is that both had their Holy Writ delivered to them by an Angel." Indeed. The parallels are numerous. Entire books have been dedicated to the topic. And one early member of the church stated: "The Prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true Mormon, that Smith's prophecies are superior to the laws of the land. I have heard the Prophet say that he would yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; and if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky mountains to the Atlantic ocean; that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, 'the Alcoran or the Sword.'" (History of the Church 3:167)
Originally Posted By jonvn "And as the old testament is also a load of historical bunk...make note that Judaism is also worthless." Yep. Said as much myself. It was a way to keep a bunch of nomadic tribes together out on the desert. That's what its original intent was. Seems to have worked well. Well, somewhat. Most of the tribes are "lost" and the remnant practice some strange mix of biblical scripture, stuff written about it, and things taken from anti-semitic laws passed against Jews in Europe. But Christianity makes its major pretense on being based on the Old Testament, and how it fufills this and that. And it does not.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf Bahaism is interesting. The most fascinating part is that it is a religion that believes all religions are true. Talk about hedging your bets!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo It believes the roots of morality in all religions hold commonality. the worship of the religion is down to the individual. At one extent, it believes that if you are a good person, you deserve the rewards of being a good person. And if there are no other realm rewards, what have you lost by being a good person?
