Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer No, I shall go take a look. Love Beaky, too. :-D Or, shall I call him Witherwings? /Hermoine
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper ^^You'll love the video then. His AA is top notch. Very impressive.
Originally Posted By Lee hisownself >>I'm in love with Buckbeak, and am planning a weekend trip to Uni as we speak.<<< Me, too. Soon as I know I will be able to get on FJ....I'm on the turnpike. You can ride with us EE....if you promise to ride FJ.
Originally Posted By Socrates For how long will WDW continue to make money? Socrates "The unexamined life is not worth living."
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper ^^^From all the reports I've seen it's not very intense. They say it's no worse than Spidey.
Originally Posted By Socrates "P.S. Simplifying the Wizarding World down to one attraction is not fair at all, IMO. The area will literally be alive with theming, Streetmosphere, AAs inside shops, terrific food and drink, live entertainment, etc." BTW, how long do you think it will be before Universal starts to cut back on Harry Potter's food and entertainment? Socrates "The unexamined life is not worth living."
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper ^^^^Considering Uni has had the best theme park restaurant for years running at this point, I doubt the food will drop in quality at all. As for the entertainment, I don't think J.K. Rowling will let them drop the quality of the area. She protects her property like a hawk, and she will raise a stink if things start to decline.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Soon as I know I will be able to get on FJ....I'm on the turnpike. You can ride with us EE....if you promise to ride FJ<<< If it's a one day deal, HELL YES. I will be there. ;-)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I love it. A deep, probing (no WDI/fanboi jokes here), thought-provoking thread about all that is wrong in the Fairy/Pixie/Magic/Timeshare/Vinyl World. Great job ... some of your thoughts and my reactions: <<Okay, after watching a video of Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey's queue (which is absolutely breathtaking, btw), and the insisting of plenty of insiders that The Little Mermaid ride won't be anywhere near the level it's being hyped as, along with the relative stagnation of WDW, I have to ask...>> Before you ask ... I'll just say Mermaid will be a nice, little D-Ticket in a land of much nicer landscaping, meet-greet-gropes (*now improved with coloring) and a 'possible' spinner (think Fairies meet LadyBug Boogie or the Cars version) ... isn't this what you expect of a Disney Company in the 21st century that could deliver PoC in 1967, the WDW resort in 1971, EPCOT Center in 1982 etc? <<How much longer can they pull this off? How much longer can they skate by on name and recognition alone? Can they do it indefinitely because of the great tradition Walt created for them?>> C'mon this is the company that trots out the famous 'Why I built DL' Walt interview so it can sell freaking TIMESHARES!!!! It's all about living off the Legacy of Walt and the amazing artists, engineers, storytellers and dreamers that worked and learned under him. Does anyone seriously believe any of the top company execs truly care about that Legacy? From Iger to Rasulo to Staggs? How about WDW's exec 'leadership' team? You think Erin Wallace and Phil Holmes get how much they have bastardized the MK in the quest for better quarterly results? <<I know there are plenty of plans on the table for the parks, but until they are built, and built on the level they deserve, that's all they are: plans.>> Plans make for great coffee table books and D23 fanboi droolfests. That's it. Reality is what matters. Happily ever afters only count when you're alive (not in some nebulous special place when you're dead) ... sorry, off on a Lost tangent here. <<In my lifetime I've watched MK go from a park that was an adventure to everyone who entered it to a park that many over the age of 10-15 have a hard time spending more than a few hours in without getting bored or sick of the sugary sweet-cartoonish vibe the park has been taken over by.>> Unless I am with friends, I can't usually take more than 4-5 hours of MK without being bored to tears. <<I've watched the stores over the property become homogenized and made into a character and general merchandise opportunity only, instead of the great, quality, attraction and area specific merchandise it used to be.>> Try DAK and EPCOT ... they still have non-character stuff in numerous locales. <<But the most egregious error of all is how the resort has basically become a kid resort. Parents and those without children are basically given a big middle finger by the mouse at WDW, and guests ARE noticing. I hear the complaints while working. I here the mumbles and grumbles. But most of all I hear things from people my age. The people who will be having kids within 5-6 years(on average of course), and they seem to be drifting away from Disney, at least at Walt Disney World, which really seems to be the only Disney resort that has this problem.>> It is/has happened to all Disney resorts to some degree. But none like WDW. None has been Walmarted to such a degree ... from dumbed down menus for simple folks to neutered attractions (Snow White) to complete foamhead entertainment vs. venues like PI that were for adults. <<So again I ask...how long can WDW keep this up?>> As long as possible. That's the goal. That's Iger's 'plan' ... make the Disney 'brand' something for kids/tweens and their parents. Screw the rest of us. It isn't simply with WDW. It's in his desire to dump ABC. It's him killing SOAPNET to replace it with another Disney Channel for PRESCHOOLERS. It's him approving another redo of The Disney Store chain that is supposed to be 'the most important and magical 30-minutes of an 8-year-old's day'. But with WDW, it's also about playing the fanboi community with nostalgia ... and using 'social media' to get the message out about how MAGICAL WDW really is. ... Of course, D23 failed to sell out its special SUPER MAGICAL FANBOI GARDEN PARTY AND BBQ WITH DANNY COCKERELL AND PALS! at the low-low price of $195 a person (bottled water an extra $4 according to Deb Wills who NEVER criticizes anything Disney does ... and why should she since she has made a lucrative career out of being an unabashed Disney lover?) Anyway ... great holiday weekend thread there, Skip.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Indefinately. I agree with your observations, but I also know I am in the minority.>> How do you know this? Disney doesn't even know this. Plenty of folks ... even those 'once in a lifetime' guests may well feel the same way. But their opinions won't show up here ... won't show up in a PowerPoint ... and mostly won't even show up in a letter to management ... so, it may well be like they don't exist. I will resist the urge to retell the story of when I stayed at the CBR in fall 2000 and it was falling apart what a 'normal' guest told me when I loudly proclaimed that most guests weren't savvy enough to know they'd been hoodwinked by the marketing magic. I've only mentioned it about 543 times here ... <<Surprisingly not everyone in the world does not follow the minutia of WDW and Disney as many of us do. I think the average person thinks of Disney along the lines of: this summer we will go to the beach, next year to WDW, the summer after that to Paris. So they come and do a week, have a great time and move on. Yeah, some of them comment on the decline in cleanliness, movement away for the lack of detail and the CM's who arent as friendly, but those same people shop at Walmart where the person who checked me out this week (after I spend $150.00) didnt say 2 words to me. And when you compare the experience to say a Six Flags park that is really really dirty and down right rude employees, Disney doesnt look half bad.>> Some thoughts: If Disney is actively trying to get rid of longtime fans like myself (and I believe they are) and replace us with a new less discerning group of regulars, then they'll also need plenty of 'average' folks who still have certain expectations of what they should be getting for their money in the 21st century. If you shop at Walmart, then you get what you pay for. If Disney is just going for better than Six Flags, then they'll likely be competing with them in the future. <<The problem at WDW is that it is declining as every other aspect life is also declining so all in all WDW looks pretty good.>> I get that the 21st century has mostly sucked (yeah, Apple toys aside)... but some of us will fight the Walmarting of the USA and things near and dear to us (like the Mouse) until we are led to wherever we move on to by Christian Sheppard (yeah, I still have Lost on my mind, you gonna make something of it?) <<Where in your life do we really get exemplorary guest service anymore? So when you go to Disney and many CM's smile and say hi your impressed.>> You can still get good guest service at plenty of places. I do. So, I'm not impressed by WDW CMs who do the bare minimum. <<Personally I think WDW is a mess.>> It is. ... But hey, you can now buy Marvel crap in the MK ... and McD's is going to be a chicken joint ... and the 1972 MSEP is back AGAIN ... and have you seen the BLT ... or taken a leak in the magical Adventureland bathrooms? And there's this NEW AMAZING MAGICAL CRAZE (Steve Miller has to sit at tables with large tablecloths or stand in front of podiums when talking about it because IT IS SO WICKED MAGICAL) ... IT'S VINYL MICKEYS ... all kinds ... all designs and all at $12.95 and up ... best part? You don't even know what you are buying ... imagine how much you could rack up with these?!??! Can you say foreclosure, fanbois? <<And I strongly believe that we will never see a WDW of the quality we used to see. There is no one with the heart to create that place anymore. Mgmt has been neutered of anyone who truly cares and has enough influence to make changes. Plus mgmt's responsibilities have been so constricted to small areas of operation that only the highest directors have any real power and they are beholden to the men at the very top who see the park as a profit center.>> Does Meg Crofton have a soul? Or a clue? Discuss.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I really don't think that they can keep it up for more than another 5-10 years.>> Sure they can. By then they'll have opened at least another 3-4 resorts (2-3 DVC), had a half-dozen marketing 'celebrations' and opened a lot of very minor attractions that will be marketed as so much more than they are. And the social media whores will be singing their praises ... as Disney's creative legacy's last petal falls (think Beauty and the Beast, fanbois!) <<Just watching Travel Channel specials and other products of the company, it's simply become too self-refferential and nostalgic.>> Because that's what sells to people who are less discerning and don't know any better. It works. Look at the last decade at WDW. VERY little of substance. Very little (if anything) that was cutting edge or raised the bar. But marketing magic ... that they have down to a science. <<Disney can still create quality experiences on occasion, but the visionary approach that it once had is gone. >> Long. <<Unless people want to keep hearing the same half-dozen quotes from a man who has been dead for half a century, and rehashing of the same old concepts with new wrappers, there's really not much there to keep people coming back. Yes, there are a few things that are still truly exceptional, like the seasonal festivals at Epcot and one-of-a-kind experiences like Kilimanjaro Safaris, but even those are getting a little old and worn out. The growth in the 90's was done too quickly to sustain it, and because of that, much of the 00's had nothing. Now, the decade of stagnation is starting to catch up with them, and they need to do something to move on. >> I love to hear my words/viewpoints coming out of others, even years later. I feel vindicated ... like one of those death row inmates who spends 22 years behind bars before DNA shows 'oops, you weren't even guilty!' <<Yes, they could change their standard business procedure, but that just doesn't seem likely. As has been said many times before, the Fantasyland expansion is a start, but it also seems like too little, too late.>> C'mon, what do you have against coloring with princesses?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I'm sure that Harry Potter will be great, and may appeal to some Disney nerds more than a new Fantasyland, but it's ONE ride. That alone can't top all there is to see and do at WDW.>> Not one ride. One game-changing ride. 2-3 rethemed but very kewl rides (Dueling Dragons was one of the top three coasters in O-Town to begin with). entire elaborately themed land, including dining, retail and scenery. "Just watching Travel Channel specials and other products of the company, it's simply become too self-refferential and nostalgic. Disney can still create quality experiences on occasion, but the visionary approach that it once had is gone. " <<While I agree with this, the public seems to never tire of it. Just look at the premise behind World of Color at DCA. It's pure nostalgia and the show looks like it's going to be a big hit.>> WoC will be a huge hit. But nostalgia alone won't do it. It will be a hit because it will be a very cool show that had loads of $$$ spent on it. Anaheim isn't Orlando. In O-Town you could sell piles of horse $hit so long as it was in the shape of Mickey. Doesn't work so well in a more cultured area.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Considering Uni has had the best theme park restaurant for years running at this point, I doubt the food will drop in quality at all.>> I'm still trying to figure out how Mythos can serve me a great quality filet mignon for well under $20, but Le Cellier keeps cutting the size and quality and now has price points well over $30. Clearly, UNI is losing money on food (can you feel the sarcasm dripping thru my keyboard?) <<As for the entertainment, I don't think J.K. Rowling will let them drop the quality of the area. She protects her property like a hawk, and she will raise a stink if things start to decline.>> I doubt there will be any decline in quality ... in fact, if anything, I'd expect things to improve if some things aren't up to JK's standards.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>If Disney is actively trying to get rid of longtime fans like myself (and I believe they are) and replace us with a new less discerning group of regulars, then they'll also need plenty of 'average' folks who still have certain expectations of what they should be getting for their money in the 21st century.<<< Hmm. Dunno about that. While they are of course, always on the prowl for a new guest that won't know true quality, that won't notice when something is broken, they do seem to like to go back to us, and attempt to placate the "original" fanbase. See: D23. Shame it sucks. It could/would/should have been a nice little part of the company that said: "Look how great we (once were) are, and why you love us so much", but instead it's just a over obvious ploy to squeeze some money out of us without any substance. If it had substance, I wouldn't mind. ...but like the most of WDW (Back the the thread, EE, back to the thread...) it's all style, and great looks, and new facades (MSUSA has tarps!! Looks great!!...oy. ) and no real substance. I had hoped that we would get that at least in TLM. But that looks to be a solid C (D, I know, Spirit...I know.) amongst a land full of beautiful buildings...with nothing in them. Uni, on the other hand looks to be getting both style and substance...HPland looks spectacular, is going to tell a spectacular story, and have the ride and details to boot. I'm freaking jealous. I want that in WDW. Badly. It's a good thing WDW still has a History and a nostalgia to it, for me, at least....
Originally Posted By leemac I was reading CMDad's thread about having one wish for WDW, thought of mine and then decided against posting it. However I'm relenting as it fits into this thread perfectly. I wish that 9/11 hadn't happened. That tragic event was more than the incredible loss of life in NYC - it had a knock-on effect that traumatized just about every single industry - and few were impacted more than tourism. I'll credit the WDW Co. management team at the time of doing a tremendous job of keeping the resort operational - they took some incredibly hard decisions upfront for the greater good. I was pleasantly surprised by the outcome as they acted quickly and effectively (both traits that are currently lacking in Central Florida). However WDW Co. pushed for a quicker rebound than the industry could handle which led to mass discounting to fill those rooms. Instead of maintaining pricing (and therefore quality) they opted to discount through the floor - an example is the All Stars which were cheaper in the first years of this century than they were when they opened in '94 despite compounded CPI running at 20% over the same period. That discounting has continued for the past nine years. It has all been about keeping guest occupancy as high as possible irrespective of the outside indicators (such as the credit crisis). The problem is that consumers have long memories - they don't take kindly to rapid price increases for the same product. Many FMCGs will have the same problem come next year - P&G have been discounting their branded product for the past two years and selling it in larger (and cheaper) containers to shift the same volume. They won't be able to push through massive price hikes when the economy rebounds as consumers will balk - discounting should always be the last resort for any branded product. You run the risk of lasting degradation of the brand if you cheapen it. The second aspect has been the overall direction of the resort. There is little doubt that WDW is more susceptible to outside influences like the economy and global travel conditions than was previously thought. WDW was largely immune to the blip in '90 when the Gulf War commenced and oil went through the roof. The reason? WDW was a much smaller vacation destination at that time - two and a half theme parks (Disney/MGM had just opened in the previous May as a half-day experience), two water parks and far fewer hotel rooms (think - no Boardwalk, All Stars, Pop Century, DAK Lodge, Wilderness Lodge, Coronado Springs, Port Orleans/Dixie Landings and the first DVC resort didn't open until '91). The vast majority of the hotel expansion was in the period from the start of that recession to '95 - when construction was cheap and so was capital. So now WDW has more hotel rooms to fill to maintain occupancy and a decent RevPAR. Which means that they need to target as broad as possible a market - all of the US192 families are suddenly brought on to property - WDW Co. decided that they wanted to capture the entire market. The problem is then how do provide a "value" resort offering that is basic enough but still has a certain level of standard because it has the Disney name attached to it? Michael Eisner resisted going after the value segment for a long time - there were a host of hotel projects on the boards before All Star appeared. He was convinced that it was a market he didn't want to chase - he eventually relented but always disagreed with the model. Then families start to question why they should pay a premium for a moderate or a deluxe when they get the same basic service (think Disney's perceived high level of "hospitality", transportation etc.) so it drags down all of the room rates as some folks trade down. Now the logic is that some families will also trade up in good times (value to moderate and moderate to deluxe) but there hasn't been a long enough sustained period of growth in the US for that to effectively happen (despite cheap credit). So folks in the values stay in the values where the margins are slim but they are "captured" on-property, right? The crux of the argument is finding a balance. Just when I thought WDW had reached the upper limit of its inventory ceiling it adds more DVC rooms and now a brand new hotel in the Art of Animation - another 2,000 rooms to fill nightly. Can the rest of WDW's infrastructure support those numbers? Think of the additional buses at peak times - 2,000 rooms in a basic hotel equals 4,500 people when full based on average occupancy of 2.5. To maintain their 85% target occupancy means an extra 3,825 folks on property each night for Art of Animation - where are those people going to come from? Airlines into MCO aren't adding flights at the moment - maybe it will change by 2012 but it is a big gamble - and a big capital expenditure gamble as Disney hotels aren't cheap to build. And then you have the parks. The issue for the past decade has been poor master planning. 5 and 10 Year Plans that should be the bedrock for theme park development go out the window as WDW Co. has a capped capex budget each year and often they have to rob Peter to pay for Paul. And the parks are always the first to suffer. Each of the four parks has its own "mission statement" now - so only projects that meet that mission statement are approved now. So we end up with projects being approved that fit that statement rather than what is right. The story of Tower of Terror will never happen again - the numbers on that project didn't stack up - the cost was not justified by the expenditure - but Michael approved it as "it was the right thing to do - it is an incredible attraction". And it was done right. Now even if those attractions are approved they get cut back even during construction. Hence the bird-on-a-stick on Everest and the second AA being cut. Nobody wants to approve an E-Ticket for WDW any more - too risky and the question is what benefit do we get? DAK needed a marquee attraction like Everest - the other parks already have those. So instead we get small developments - the days of Splash Mountain are long gone. Eric Jacobson's original concept for the Fantasyland expansion was incredible. A great indoor attraction called Cartoon Corners featuring the Jolly Trolley as the ride vehicle, a fun Snow White mine car ride and a wonderful full-service Tiana's restaurant. What happened? Cut. Far too expensive and unnecessary as MK is the cash cow, right? Plus we don't need anything vaguely "thrilling" in MK as it is the kiddie park. The park needs capacity - it has been screaming out for it for years. This expansion adds very little in capacity but it does cater to the core mission statement - the Disney branded fun that is MK.
Originally Posted By leemac I doubt that Potter will have any true effect on WDW - my understanding is that Potter tends to skew a little older than most Disney properties - and ultimately it is one attraction in one park (that arguably hasn't been as successful as Uni wanted). I expect that some folks will want to visit IoA but is it really a game changer for Orlando? I think IoA's attendance was something pitiful like 4.5m in 2009 (barely in the top ten most visited parks in the US if I recall). That number would have to change monumentally - like north of 20% increase (c.1m guests) to have any effect on WDW. I'm just not convinced that will happen. Epcot added something like 1m additional clicks thanks to the Millennium. Everest added nearly that number (but every park was up in '06). Is Potter a bigger draw that something like Everest? I guess we will find out. The issue is that IoA could rebound to its initial attendance numbers - the park managed 6m in its first full year of ops and so the last year on record it was down 25% on that number - a huge decline when all of the Disney parks are up over the same period. So Potter probably won't have an impact. However that doesn't give a free pass to WDW management to avoid additional development on their own parks. I don't get the Potter phenomenon - but it does make me sad to think back to how close we were as a company to securing the rights. It couldn't have been closer. The author wanted us to have it but Jay refused to pay the royalties in the end - just too high. The stuff that was developed was breath-taking - it would have blown folks away.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 It would seem to me that Universal, IOA and SeaWorlds numbers were directly affected by the economy. Disney did a great job of bringing people onto property and then keeping them there with discounted rooms, free food, etc. When you vacation and your watching every penny it is easier to spend your free day at the pool then drop several hundred dollars (for a family of 4 purchasing tickets and food) then heading to another companies theme park. I think IOA will see a jump in its numbers this year. The economy is slowly coming back and I think Univesal has done a wonderful job of peaking peoples interest in Harry Potter.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 Interesting article in todays Orlando Sentinel. Can Harry Potter be a game changer in Orlando? <a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-universal-orlando-harry-potter-20100530,0,7504619.story" target="_blank">http://www.orlandosentinel.com...19.story</a>
Originally Posted By -em I concur with most of what has been said so I won't repeat it. I do think on many fronts they are starting into a death spiral that it'll be interesting to see how they recover. This week I got in a conversation with someone on the "product" side of merchandise about the "one disney" initiative (i.e all the Disney Parks crap)and how they are trying to make both coasts the "same". I agree with it to a point that the background policies/rules etc should be the same but trying to blend both coasts into one mold wont work. Even blending all 4 WDW parks into a single mold won't work. If the SAME stuff is available everywhere you will only get my money ONCE- Whereas if you have DIFFERENT stuff everywhere you may get my money many different times. When you don't have enough product line to stock a specific store so that the Tower of Terror Gift Shop is 1/3 tower 1/3 Nightmare and 1/3 generic crap. The same generic crap that is on Sunset, and Hollywood Blvd, and Backlands, And MK and Epcot etc. And their answer to less barcodes? Too much stuff was going to outlets. Well DUH. If you put all your money on banking that guests want product A and you order 5,000 units to fill all stores and guests HATE Product A you then have 4,500 units to discount. If you have products A,B,C,D,E each with 1,000 units. Product A may tank but B,C,D sold out and E did pretty good you only have minimum product to outlet... WDW esp has regulated back to the "give people what they are asking for and not what they NEED" Sadly FLE fits dead into this. I want WDW to give me something I can't live without but I don't know WHAT yet. Just like I hate the fact that several pieces of the "Disney Look" took a step towards casual wear shows that Disney is slowly abandoning its pedestal and jointing the ranks of "amusement parks"
