Originally Posted By Mr X **I understand your reluctance to accept anything negative about Fred Rogers.** No, that's not it. I just disagree with you, that's all. If I felt there was something negative there, I'd have no problem agreeing with you. I just don't see it the way you seem to. I can understand your point about education being an issue, if in fact grades and achievement took a back seat to "feeling good about yourself" (I'm sure it did, in various degrees). But Fred Rogers didn't identify himself as an educator, at least not through any of this material I've been looking at. More of a therapist...child behaviorist, maybe...and entertainer. You wouldn't expect a shrink to tell a depressed person "hey, what you need to do is achieve more, your too self-centered"? Not saying he was technically "treating" the kids, but I'd say that he did more good for the kids that DIDN'T receive that "expression of care", as compared to kids from totally healthy families that probably didn't need any supplimental TV shows to help them along anyway. And we're talking a half-hour show, although if that show had an impact on the other stuff you're talking about then no, that's not a good thing but I don't believe that was ever the intention of the show. So if educators followed that as some sort of an educational model, they shouldn't have. So, I get your point but I think the show is apples and oranges compared to the dumbing down of education (which I agree is pathetic...just recently Pi became 3 in Japan. JAPAN! HOW sick is that!?).
Originally Posted By Mr X **I believe he was inadvertantly part of an educational movement** Pretty much sums up how I feel in a nutshell. Like I said above, I don't think the intent of the show was educational, certainly not in a "classroom" sense. We had Sesame Street for stuff like that. As he said, a show about feelings and conflict resolution is good for MENTAL HEALTH...not education.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder This is just one of many links that refer to Rogers as an educator. <a href="http://www.medaloffreedom.com/FredRogers.htm" target="_blank">http://www.medaloffreedom.com/ FredRogers.htm</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X Just watching the original video again, I noticed that Mr. Rogers never used any terms such as "teach" or "educate". He spoke about being in the field of child development, trying to learn about the inner needs of children. Sorry, but to me that sounds more like a psychologist than a teacher. I could be wrong, but anyway I'm not going to beleaguer the point...as an educator myself, I certainly don't subscribe to the idea of giving a kid an unearned pat on the back. However, such things as self-esteem, emotional development, and conflict resolution are also very important, and I sure do think this show was quite appropriate as a medium for such issues.
Originally Posted By JohnS1 "just recently Pi became 3 in Japan. JAPAN! HOW sick is that!?)." What is "Pi?" I don't get whay this sentence means.
Originally Posted By Mr X The mathematical term Pi (I dunno how to type the symbol). <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P i</a> They dumbed it down in Japan so the kids no longer learn it's value as 3.14, because three is "close enough".
Originally Posted By Mr X Sorry, I didn't write that too clearly (in the first place). Anyway, a mathematical constant equal to the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter in Euclidean geometry...which now apparently equals, three.
Originally Posted By Mr X That's a neat little graphic at the top of the wiki page, by the way. I've never seen it demonstrated so simply and clearly.
Originally Posted By JohnS1 I knew what Pi meant - I just couldn't believe you meant THAT Pi. How can you change a mathematical constant? That sort of makes it NOT a constant then, doesn't it? Imagine if the people designing and building huge roller coasters for theme parks decided that the physics to make it safe disn't have to be exact and they could just "round it off." Sheesh.
Originally Posted By Mr X Well, yes and no...since Pi is rounded off to begin with. But yes, 3 is hardly the way to achieve accuracy! In any case, much like we Americans are worried that the new generations are lazy and uncompetetive, so do the Japanese. They are especially concerned about Korea and China surpassing Japan in education, drive, and for lack of a better term "hunger". Maybe there's just no way to keep a steady level of productivity going throughout the generations. Seems like the most productive eras have been as a result of the population growing up in a horror show (America after the great depression, Japan after losing the war and having to work 72 hour weeks just to eat...etc...). Seems like when a generation grows up "large", there's a certain sense of entitlement and certainly a sense that the world owes them something.
Originally Posted By jonvn If you built things and rounded it to that accuracy, they'd fall apart. When I worked at a large defense plant making death machines, we used 3.1415926. That was more than accurate enough.
Originally Posted By peeaanuut what ever happened to using 22/7? That is what I was taught to use. Fractions are just so much easier.
Originally Posted By peeaanuut <<Beginning as early as the 1970s, I think, the self-esteem movement urged teachers to rank a student's personal development ahead of his or her achievement in reading, writing, arithmetic and science. The idea was that if students had high self-esteem, learning would simply take care of itself. This was a very attractive idea to an education profession which was already into "progressive" educational thinking. The self-esteem factor also seemed to explain why many students did not respond enthusiastically to various forms of progressive teaching. These students were simply impaired by poor self-esteem. Meanwhile, books like I'm OK You're OK were doing the same sorts of things for adults.>> I want to tell a story about a child going through several years of school. Beginning in kindergarten this child was coming off of a "debilitating" accident. His elbow was broken and his parents were told by he would never use that arm properly. But with the help of an understanding kindergarten teacher the child was given extra tasks that would help strengthen the use of his elbow, lower arm and most importantly his fingers. Fingers that had not worked for over 6 months began to have feeling and now that arm is the child's dominant arm. In the 1st grade the child was repeatedly sent to the principles offices for acting out. The child maintained all his schoolwork but was given low marks because he was disruptive. In the 2nd grade the child was transfered schools because he was a menace and caused the teacher and administration too much grief. The child received 100% on his CTBS test that year. At his new school he was given an F on a book report because the teacher was certain that that child did not read The Hobbit and was cheating. He was expelled and moved to a new school district. In third grade, that boy began to get into a lot of fight. Most of it was because he was being picked on for going to the 6th grade class for math. The teachers and administration felt the best thing was for the child to go back to 3rd grade math to end the fighting. The child was suspended 79 more days of that school year for being a problem child. The moral, the teachers didn't care about the child's self esteem or development. The teachers were worried about their own self esteem. Save the kindergarten teacher. My Rodgers cared about no one else but kids. He was a teacher, he was a psychologist and to some extent he was a guider of faith. There is noone left like that in the world. And that is simply sad.
Originally Posted By JohnS1 Individual students have and always will need some special treatment and self-esteem building efforts on the part of teachers. That hasn't changed. What I'm saying is that when entire classes are given the same "I'm the best person ever and everything I do is right" treatment, it creates a whole crowd of demanding, spoiled kids who don't what it is to fail, and think the whole world owes them something.
Originally Posted By Mr X I've never seen a classroom taken to an extreme such as that, but I would definitely agree that is no way to teach a group. How'd they ever get the idea that would work, anyway?
Originally Posted By DlandJB My Rodgers cared about no one else but kids. He was a teacher, he was a psychologist and to some extent he was a guider of faith. There is noone left like that in the world. And that is simply sad.>>> Fred Rogers was an ordained minister and probably one of the best witnesses of gentle but solid faith that television has ever had. It was my privilege to meet him back in the late 1990s and he was very much the same guy you see on television. A very gentle, bright man with a very caring heart.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<Just about the only academic notable who rejected these ideas as scientifically unfounded was B. F. Skinner, who was then villified by the "progressive mainstream" who trashed and distorted virtually everything connected with him. >> Just like it was for Galileo, it can be hazardous to challenge the dogmas of the day.
Originally Posted By JohnS1 Bump - I was redeemed tonight on "60 Minutes" after seeing a story about today's "Millenial" generation. The segment talked about spoiled 20-something kids getting jobs and finding themselves unable to perform daily work without daily (or even hourly) praise - largely due to the "you're special" messages of the Mr. Rogers generation of parents. I feel so validated now. (-;
