Originally Posted By YourPalEd The truth: The national guard should NEVER have been allowed to be used in iraq by the republicans, who used lives, like they shift money from social security to their defense industry buddies. I believe it was and is illegal to have sent the national guard to iraq in the first place. I don't care what anyone says, the national guard should have been here, ready and prepared for any of the hurricanes. All the hurricanes previous to katrina would have offered the national guard ample opportunity to teach citizens how to be prepared. Instead the propagandists on the news had a million and a half scared republicans clogging the highways with their suv's and hummers. 6,100 troops that are on our borders now, could have been in new orleans before, during, and after. They are not. We got them home, or more of them, but we need them now, but not for emergencies here either. Now, we need them to act as local police officers for our nations boarders. If we make laws declaring bush can not use the national guard for wars. We could then add just a fraction of the money lost on katrina aid, to pay for new national guard hirees.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>...this summer's hurricane season will be geometrically, and statistically, 1/3 to double, last years hurricane strengths.<< I am not certain if you meant to imply the range was one third to double, or two times to three times. Regardless, the Red Cross and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration do not agree with this startling assertion. <a href="http://www.redcross.org/article/0" target="_blank">http://www.redcross.org/articl e/0</a>,1072,0_312_5560,00.html EXCERPT: >>On the heels of Tropical Storm Chris, forecasters have lowered their predictions for the remainder of the 2006 Atlantic Coast hurricane season. The American Red Cross continues to encourage the public to take this opportunity to get prepared. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) reports that although this year’s three named storms to-date pale in comparison to the nine that had formed by this time last year, an above-normal season is still being predicted. For the remainder of the season, which officially runs from June 1 through Nov. 30, NOAA is predicting 12 to 15 named storms. Of these storms, seven to nine are expected to become hurricanes with three to four intensifying to major hurricanes.<< By comparison, here is what the Wikipedia says about the 2005 season: >>The 2005 Atlantic hurricane season was the most active Atlantic hurricane season in recorded history, shattering previous records on repeated occasions...The season officially began on June 1, 2005, and lasted until November 30, although it effectively persisted into January 2006 due to continued storm activity. A record twenty-eight tropical and subtropical storms formed, of which a record fifteen became hurricanes.<< For the record, two to three times as many hurricanes as 2005 would be 30 to 45. It could happen, I suppose.
Originally Posted By ecdc "although I absolutely agree it ended up being a federal emenrgency, it started as a local emergency and was handled poorly by both ends" This sums it up about right, if you ask me. I'm actually reading Douglas Brinkley's book, "The Great Deluge". Even though I'm only a couple of chapters in, I'm already stunned at Ray Nagin and Mike Brown's shocking lack of action. Brinkley documents quite well Nagin's paralyzing fear of declaring a mandatory evacuation in the interest of not upsetting businesses. Then there's Mike "From Horses to FEMA" Brown who refused to follow even basic FEMA precedents by sending an advanced team to New Orleans and essentially did nothing. Talk about failure at all levels.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Katrina is the fault of the local people" If people actually bothered to look at the history of this country before coming to their ill-formed conclusions, they might understand things a bit better. The federal government has always stepped in when local authority has been overwhelmed, which was the case here. For example, in the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire, US Army soldiers were called up to ensure peace and calm in the streets and to help put out the fire and to take care of refugees. The local authorities simply were not equipped to do so, particulary as most of the local resources were flat out destroyed. The reason I mention that particular disaster is because before Katrina, it was the single largest natural disaster to befall a part of this country. Katrina was bigger, making SF in 1906 now number 2. To somehow expect the locals to be able to handle something like this is idiocy. It's not practical, and it's not how the government has ever worked.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom In responce to post # 43: <<Brown who refused to follow even basic FEMA precedents by sending an advanced team to New Orleans and essentially did nothing.>> This hurricane hit all over the place with three landfalls. <<<Hurricane Katrina formed as Tropical Depression Twelve over the southeastern Bahamas on August 23, 2005 as the result of an interaction of a tropical wave and the remains of Tropical Depression Ten. The system was upgraded to tropical storm status on the morning of August 24 and at this point, the storm was given the name Katrina. The tropical storm continued to move towards Florida, and became a hurricane only two hours before it made landfall between Hallandale Beach and Aventura, Florida on the morning of August 25. The storm weakened over land, but it regained hurricane status about one hour after entering the Gulf of Mexico.[2] The storm rapidly intensified after entering the Gulf, in part due to the storm's movement over the warm waters of the Loop Current.[3] On August 27, the storm reached Category 3 intensity on the Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale, becoming the third major hurricane of the season. An eyewall replacement cycle disrupted the intensification, but caused the storm to nearly double in size. Katrina again rapidly intensified, attaining Category 5 status on the morning of August 28 and reached its peak strength at 1:00 p.m. CDT that day, with maximum sustained winds of 175 mph (280 km/h) and a minimum central pressure of 902 mbar. The pressure measurement made Katrina the fourth most intense Atlantic hurricane on record at the time, only to be surpassed by Hurricanes Rita and Wilma later in the season; it was also the strongest hurricane ever recorded in the Gulf of Mexico at the time as well (a record also later broken by Rita).[2] Katrina made its second landfall at 6:10 a.m. CDT on August 29 as a Category 3 hurricane with sustained winds of 125 mph (205 km/h) near Buras-Triumph, Louisiana. At landfall, hurricane-force winds extended outward 120 miles (190 km) from the center and the storm's central pressure was 920 mbar. After moving over southeastern Louisiana and Breton Sound, it made its third landfall near the Louisiana/Mississippi border with 120 mph (195 km/h) sustained winds, still at Category 3 intensity.[2] Katrina maintained hurricane strength well into Mississippi, but weakened thereafter, finally losing hurricane strength more than 150 mi (240 km) inland near Jackson, Mississippi. It was downgraded to a tropical depression near Clarksville, Tennessee, but its remnants were last distinguishable in the eastern Great Lakes region on August 31, when it was absorbed by a frontal boundary. The resulting extratropical storm moved rapidly to the northeast and affected Ontario and Quebec.[2]>>>
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<<Preparations Main article: Preparations for Hurricane Katrina Florida Many living in the area were caught off guard when Katrina strengthened from a tropical storm to a hurricane in one day and struck southern Florida near the Miami-Dade–Broward county line. The hurricane struck between the cities of Aventura, in Miami-Dade County, and Hallandale, in Broward County, on August 25, 2005. However, National Hurricane Center (NHC) forecasts had correctly predicted that Katrina would intensify to hurricane strength before landfall, and hurricane watches and warnings were issued 31.5 hours and 19.5 hours before landfall, respectively — only slightly less than the target thresholds of 36 and 24 hours.[2] Florida Governor Jeb Bush declared a state of emergency on August 24 in advance of Katrina's landfall in Florida. Shelters were opened and schools closed in several counties in the southern part of the state. A number of evacuation orders were also issued, mostly voluntary, although a mandatory evacuation was ordered for at-risk housing in Martin County.[4]>>>
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<<Gulf Coast On August 26, the state of Mississippi activated its National Guard in preparation of the storm's landfall. Additionally, the state government activated its Emergency Operations Center the next day, and local governments began issuing evacuation orders. By 7:00 p.m. EDT on August 28, 11 counties and eleven cities issued evacuation orders, a number which increased to 41 counties and 61 cities by the following morning. Moreover, 57 emergency shelters were established on coastal communities, with 31 additional shelters available to open if needed.[8] Louisiana's hurricane evacuation plan calls for local governments in areas along and near the coast to evacuate in three phases, starting with the immediate coast 50 hours before the start of tropical storm force winds. Persons in areas designated Phase II begin evacuating 40 hours before the onset of tropical storm winds and those in Phase III areas (including New Orleans) evacuate 30 hours before the start of such winds.[9] However, many private care-taking facilities who relied on bus companies and ambulance services for evacuation were unable to evacuate their charges. Fuel and rental cars were in short supply and many forms of public transportation had been shut down well before the storm arrived.[10] Some estimates claimed that 80% of the 1.3 million residents of the greater New Orleans metropolitan area evacuated, leaving behind substantially fewer people than remained in the city during the Hurricane Ivan evacuation.[11] By Sunday, August 28, most infrastructure along the Gulf Coast had been shut down, including all Canadian National Railway and Amtrak rail traffic into the evacuation areas as well as the Waterford Nuclear Generating Station.[12] The NHC maintained the coastal warnings until late on August 29, by which time Hurricane Katrina was over central Mississippi.[2]>>>
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<<Greater New Orleans Area See also: Hurricane preparedness for New Orleans Vertical cross-section of New Orleans, showing maximum levee height of 23 feet (7 m).By August 26, the possibility of unprecedented cataclysm was already being considered. Many of the computer models had shifted the potential path of Katrina 150 miles westward from the Florida Panhandle, putting the city of New Orleans right in the center of their track probabilities; the chances of a direct hit were forecast at 17%, with strike probability rising to 29% by August 28.[13] This scenario was considered a potential catastrophe because 80% of the city of New Orleans and 20% of the New Orleans metropolitan area is below sea level along Lake Pontchartrain. Since the storm surge produced by the hurricane's right-front quadrant (containing the strongest winds) was forecast to be 28 feet (8.5 m), emergency management officials in New Orleans feared that the storm surge could go over the tops of levees protecting the city, causing major flooding.[14] This risk of devastation was well known; previous studies by FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers had warned that a direct hurricane strike on New Orleans could lead to massive flooding, which would lead to thousands of drowning deaths, as well as many more suffering from disease and dehydration as the flood waters slowly receded from the city.[15] At a news conference at 10:00 a.m. on August 28, shortly after Katrina was upgraded to a Category 5 storm, New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin ordered the first ever mandatory evacuation of the city, calling Katrina "a storm that most of us have long feared".[16] The government also established several "refuges of last resort".>>>
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom In synopsis: Hurricane Katrina hit a huge amount of terriroty. Everyone thought it wasn't goign to go anywhere near New Orleans until its path shifted 150 miles on August 26th. There is no humanly possible way for FEMA to have an emergency responce crew in every major city, everywhere in the south at that time. And as indicated about ( in numerous posts I might add ) hurricane Katrina hit many south eastern states and not just the city of New Orleans. But, the facts though intresting are irrelevant. <sarcasm>
Originally Posted By jonvn zzzzzzzzzzz Maybe I should just start dumping a ton of quotes by Michael Moore in here.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip It is really stupid to blame the mayor, the governor, or Bush for the chaos following Katrina. The fault lies with the idiots who didn't leave. "Riding it out" may be a well established tradition in hurricane country by people of all races, but it is damned stupid. Now, once they made the stupid decision to ride it out there was an obligation to help them, and that was bungled at all levels. Where the Feds have really fallen down though is in reconstruction. It is a year later and the levees are still not repaired, and that is something that without question is100% the responsibility of the federal government.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <And as indicated about ( in numerous posts I might add ) hurricane Katrina hit many south eastern states and not just the city of New Orleans.> That is true. However it is also true that New Orleans' bowl shape and greater population density ensured that if hit, it would take the most devastating blow, with the most problems in the aftermath. One of the government's big three "what if's" for years has been "what if a strong hurricane hits new Orleans?" (Of course, one of the others was "terrorist attack in NYC.") Not Biloxi or Pensacola or even Miami, but New Orleans. Its density and unique geographic features made it the most likely to suffer more than even surrounding areas were it to be hit.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd The reason the hurricanes are about to be devastating, is the fact the oceans are so hot. The activity that normally would have been occuring in the gulf area, has because of the intense heat, shifted upwards in the atlantic, where the entire eastern and midwest has taken a lot of the energy, actually pulling the tension up along the coast. As everything heats up even more through september, but starts to cool in the north eastern atlantic, the hurricanes will start to spin and grow slowly. This ernesto is slow. Slow hurricanes are your enemy. They gather water and wind velocity. The hot waters in the gulf coast are a great place to spin tops, like ernesto hurricanes. I believe katrina took it's time shot across florida into the atlantic, spun south, then west back into the gulf, where it slowed to a crawl before deciding, with it's fickle finger of fate, which coastal area to obliterate.
Originally Posted By jonvn I saw on the news this morning that the water in the gulf is not as hot as it was for when Katrina was gathering strength, so it might not be as strong.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd And who is controlling the news? We all know it's the same liars, who when the housing market slows, lies and says it's time to buy a house. It is all propaganda. It is an ignorant approach to leading. Instead of lying, to downplay panic, they should be stressing the truth of what is happening, and why, instead of panicing, people calmly now prepare. You are going to be on your own regardless. You can believe the obvious liars if you want. But as your pal, i just want to suggest, putting some supplies, water, food, first aid, underwear, pants, shirts, a pair of boots, and 4 pairs of dry socks, and lighters, and matches, into a water tight duffle bag in the trunk of your car. Maybe, place a cd with scanned copies of important receipts and documents, and photographs. If you live there, as i live in earthquake country, even just a little preparation for disaster, can go a long way. An extra tent, a few sleeping bags, does not cost that much. You might have the stuff in your attic already.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom In responce to post # 51: <<The fault lies with the idiots who didn't leave. "Riding it out" may be a well established tradition in hurricane country by people of all races, but it is damned stupid.>> I first want to say that as a member of a Free society, which is suppose to respect everyones Freedom and Liberties. I absolutely respect every citizens rights to stay if they wished to. However, there are risks to "riding out a storm". People didn't leave for many different reasons, lots of which we have discussed here, althought maybe not in this thread. The police, fire and medical personnel were expected to stay. <<<Additional acts of unrest occurred following the storm, particularly with the New Orleans Police Department. In the aftermath, a tourist asked a police officer for assistance, and got the response "Go to hell, it's every man for himself"[citation needed]. Also, many New Orleans police officers deserted the city in the days before the storm, many of them escaping in their department-owned patrol cars. This added to the chaos by stretching law enforcement thin.[citation needed] Additionally, there were reports of police officers stealing vehicles from car dealerships, further adding to the confusion.[31]>>> Some citizens of New Orleans probably never even knew a hurricane was bearing down on the area. Some people stayed to protect their homes and property. Some couldn't leave as they were too sick, elderly or invilid. I guess the disguisting thing about this was that it wasn't like the sinking of the Titantic. It wasn't "every man, woman and child for themselves." All communites, cities and states have emergency plans for storms. Some even have emergency procedures for catagory 5 hurricanes. Some implement those emergency procedures. Some evacuate their communites well in advance of an oncomeing storm to save the lives of those living in the community. <<Now, once they made the stupid decision to ride it out there was an obligation to help them.>> Yes once those that chose to stay and ride it out needed help their was an obligation to help them. <<and that was bungled at all levels.>> I disagree. I can't help but think that Mayor Nagin and Governor whats her name were far more intrested in rescueing their own political careers than the citizens of New Orleans or the people of Lousianna. FEMA didn't leave hundered of buses to be flooded while hundreds of people drowned. FEMA didn't tell Amtrack, "thanks but no thanks" to train transport out of New Orleans to its citizens. FEMA wasn't holding guns preventing the displaced and suffering in New Orleans from escaping the chaios accross a bridge and into Jefferson Parrish Lousianna ( the only dry route to get out of the city ). <<<Where the Feds have really fallen down though is in reconstruction. It is a year later and the levees are still not repaired,>>> The levees are temporarily repaired. The city is dry. All of the other parishes in Lousianna have submitted reconstruction plans to the Federal Government execpt the city of New Orleans. But yet they continue to complain the most.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Blanco refused to let the Feds get invloved until all hell broke loose. Nagin let hundreds of school busses sit there and flood instead of using them to evacuate to people who didn't have a way out. Michael Brown of FEMA was an idiot... that is where Bush made a mistake, that guy. But Katrina became a disaster because of the people in New Orleans who ran that city for decades.. not Bush. But the dems will lie about this like they lie about so many other things. Lets see if they can once again fool enough people to win anything.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd >>>>>FEMA didn't leave hundered of buses to be flooded while hundreds of people drowned. FEMA didn't tell Amtrack, "thanks but no thanks" to train transport out of New Orleans to its citizens. FEMA wasn't holding guns preventing the displaced and suffering in New Orleans from escaping the chaios accross a bridge and into Jefferson Parrish Lousianna ( the only dry route to get out of the city ).>>>> This is exactly what fema did. On the news i saw live, phone lines cut on the orders of fema administrators, in the middle of rescue opperations, because they hadn't autorized the phone lines to be established, and who was going to be hired to reestablish the phone lines during the hurricane. You are not fooling anyone.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd The republicans, especially the bush selected republicans in fema were shown for 4 days, and people recorded it fully, in hd tv dvds, the bush cabal, actually hindering the rescue opperations. I saw it with my own eyes, is what republicans say to me.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd Ernesto is acting just like last year's katrina, but don't be scared, be prepared and cautious. If it curves to the right cuts through florida and back down and into the gulf, is when you should really take note. That would be over two weeks from now. Everyone had better be already packed is my humble suggeston. Packed and ready to move quickly to another location. This time everyone is alert at least, even though the false news, and analysis continue.
