Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA We have a high speed train slated for California too. Zipping passengers from LA to San Francisco in mere minutes. With stops in Bakersfield, Merced and Manteca. Or something... <--(holding his breath)
Originally Posted By MPierce By the time the bureaucrats get through with it, I am positive this system will be way over budget, be way over priced, and be way under utilized. It never fails. I would love to know what the projected use figures, and projected revenue figures are, compared to what they actually turn out being. I love rail transportation. It however has a high initial cost, a high cost of maintenance, a low return on revenues. It's prone to requiring a subsidy to continue operations, and proven inefficient here in the States. Other than that it's a great idea. The United States is not Europe or Asia. Our rail system hauls freight, and is heavily subsidized by our Government. The only way this new system has a prayer of working is to bring in advisors from overseas, and take a completely different approach to running a rail line.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << I love rail transportation. It however has a high initial cost, a high cost of maintenance, a low return on revenues. It's prone to requiring a subsidy to continue operations, and proven inefficient here in the States. >> Just change the word "rail transportation" to "highways" and describe to me why you're OK with highly subsidized pavement over railroads? Do you think highways aren't subsidized? And what in the world is efficient about moving people around in automobiles?
Originally Posted By sjhym33 "So there's not enough traffic from Orlando airport to WDW and there's not enough traffic with Tampa being WDW's largest AP population outside the immediatThat trip is 10 miles." With a price tag of 2.5 Billion dollars...of which only 1 Billion has been given by the government. You cannot either defend or predict that this high speed rail can come close to being a breakeven endeavor Even with stellar ridership from tourists there will never be enough paying customers to be profitable. Tourist may use the train to go from the airport to Disney, but if a tourist intends to do Disney, Universal, SeaWorld and/or Legoland, they will most likely rent a car. Plus if I am only going to stay at Disney I will ride the Magical Express for free. There are 2 different possible groups of riders we are talking about here. Tourists from OIA to Disney would be one. The other would be people who would use the Tampa to Lakeland to Disney to the Convention Center to the Airport. Who are those people? Probably not many. As a transportation system you immediatly run into the problem of what do at a stop. Most cities have either connecting transportation or have city centers within walking distance. But that isnt really viable here. In Orlando,Lynx is already having trouble making ends meet. Who will provide the accillory transportation needs for the rail? Local counties? Most of them are laying off people. If I take the train from Tampa to Lakeland, what am I supposed to do when I get there? And if I am a person who does that regularly then I already own a car. This isnt someone living in Brooklyn and going into Manhattan. Add to that the other rail poject in this area (Sunrail) will not connect to the high speed rail at all. There is talk of running a bus from one to the other. Does anyone really want to take a train, then a bus, then a train often? Even once sounds like a terribly long day. I have ridden through Europe on the rail and I have lived in major U.S.cities and used trains regularly. Central Florida is neither of these things. Building a 2.5 Billion dollar rail system to get people from the airport to Disney is silly. And I cant for the life of me think of any large number of people who would use it beyond that to make it viable.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Plus if I am only going to stay at Disney I will ride the Magical Express for free. >> If there is a rail link from the airport, you can bet Disney will only offer Magical Express from the rail terminal and not all the way from the airport. They would save a lot of fuel that way.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Does anyone really want to take a train, then a bus, then a train often? Even once sounds like a terribly long day. >> I do that when I fly out of Boston. It's not nearly as bad as you make it sound, and it's much better than fighting traffic and paying to park.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 I agree that the highways in the Orlando stink. This HSR will not have any effect on that. Orlando needs to take a hard look at its roads. 1 Billion dollars would be a big step in that direction.
Originally Posted By leobloom >>Building a 2.5 Billion dollar rail system to get people from the airport to Disney is silly. And I cant for the life of me think of any large number of people who would use it beyond that to make it viable.<< Precisely my concern. I love public transportation when it works, and I've studied enough city planning to know the good that can come from it. But I'm having a hard time seeing how this is going to help enough local Central Floridians to warrant the price tag. This state can't even afford to educate adequately the students we've got. And yet we're going to have money for this?
Originally Posted By leobloom But I forgot: Tourists are Florida's gods, so I guess if they're going to be the primary users of this system, then it makes sense.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 You cant compare Boston to Orlando. I grew up in NYC and didnt own a car for many years because there was no real need to. That is not true here. If I wanted to take public transportation from my house to Disney I would need to walk over a mile to get the bus, then take 2 buses to get to Disney, then take Disney transportation to my workplace. The trip to Disney alone would be over an hour and closer to 90 mins. I can drive it in 25 mins.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Just change the word "rail transportation" to "highways" and describe to me why you're OK with highly subsidized pavement over railroads? Do you think highways aren't subsidized? And what in the world is efficient about moving people around in automobiles? << I suggest you reread what I posted Sport Goofy. Now that you've done that please tell me where I was praising the use of our Highway System. I was merely pointing out some of the pitfalls of designing a high speed rail system. Sure highways are subsidized. Through bond initatives, and use tax. With the expansive size of the USA you do need a comprehinsive interstate highway system for a multitude of reasons. There's no getting around that. Eisenhower was extemely wise in pointing out the efficent way Germany had developed theirs.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Eisenhower was extemely wise in pointing out the efficent way Germany had developed theirs. >> That was before Europe and Japan developed their efficient rail systems. China's moving ahead rapidly on theirs, too. We're being left behind with an inefficient system based on cars. We'll pay the price in the long run.
Originally Posted By leobloom >>The trip to Disney alone would be over an hour and closer to 90 mins. I can drive it in 25 mins.<< Not to mention the joy of walking a mile in the Central Florida heat in July or August...
Originally Posted By MPierce >> That was before Europe and Japan developed their efficient rail systems. China's moving ahead rapidly on theirs, too. We're being left behind with an inefficient system based on cars. We'll pay the price in the long run. << Perhaps we will. I do know that a wise development of cost effective efficient rail services is warranted. I just don't see this Tampa to Orlando line as falling into that catagory. I'm all for developing a network of people moving rail systems across the country. However they must prove to have the capability of supporting themselves or offer alternative uses that will benefit the Country as a whole.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >> That was before Europe and Japan developed their efficient rail systems. China's moving ahead rapidly on theirs, too. We're being left behind with an inefficient system based on cars. We'll pay the price in the long run. << <<Perhaps we will. I do know that a wise development of cost effective efficient rail services is warranted. I just don't see this Tampa to Orlando line as falling into that catagory. I'm all for developing a network of people moving rail systems across the country. However they must prove to have the capability of supporting themselves or offer alternative uses that will benefit the Country as a whole. >> I fall into the all of the above category. We NEED rail as a nation. But it needs to be massive, something that does everything from creating Great Depression Era jobs, while making enough sense in where it is being placed to legit change the way people travel, to getting folks to give up their auto obsession (which helps up environmentally and helps us give up our addiction the black gold of the 'evildoers'). I don't see that happening by connecting Orlando, I-Drive, Disney and Tampa (and not even the airports). You want to make a change here in Florida, make it a massive project and hit every major area where it makes SENSE. And start it and end it at transport hubs like airports. The European model can work here. But traveling from I-Drive to Disney or even out to Tampa just isn't that at all.
Originally Posted By mousermerf Tampa intends to connect to the HSR via lightrail (or similar option) which will connect to the airport. There's simply not enough room for a HSR station at the airport itself. TPA has plans for a "rail" station on the site so it can connect. The city of Tampa has the location and design of the HSR station set and has already cleared the land. the city of Tampa intends to build an extensive commuter system in the next few years, which includes the TPA to HSR connection. Over at WDW? They've set aside the land - for free - and you know darn well Disney is going to control the design of their own station. I highly suspect they're going to pay for much of it too. Magical Express will cease to exist with a HSR station on Disney property. Orlando Airport is supposed to be one of the HSR stops - they reached the compromise ages ago. Airport, "Orlando" (convention center.. near Uni and Sea World), Disney, then Tampa. There might be a Lakeland in there but i don't care nor does anyone else. Lakeland will have to pay for their own darn station, and that's been known for years.
Originally Posted By MPierce Can they efficently run train shuttles from MCO to WDW though. That could be a logistics nightmare.
Originally Posted By mousermerf What is so hard for people to accept? They've already done the feasibility studies. they know where the train is going to go and where the stations will go. That was done, paid for already, over.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 That maybe true. But as a taxpayer I can be unhappy about it and as a Floridian and an Orlandoian my fear is that we will bear the brunt of the system when it doesnt meet expectations. Reminds me oddly of the Simpsons Monorail episode.
Originally Posted By mousermerf Except that's a fictional TV show and that's for internal city transport and did not have years of research and development behind it. The president chose to announce the funding in Tampa because it's the most advanced/planned/build ready bid they got from all of the various applications.
