Originally Posted By magic0214 I wonder if a 101 Dalmatians element could come into play? Level of the garage labeled Pongo?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Flamingo Crossing was even worse--it has no visibility and wasn't even going to be perceived as being "on property." If you want to open, say, a Sweet Tomatoes, why would you think about opening there when you can get cheaper rent and frontage along 192 by a Super Target? Again, overestimating the value of the Disney brand, and a fundamental lack of understanding of the Orlando market. >> This is the key point here, Disney has no concept (or they won't ever admit even to themselves) what the last 10-15 years of Walmarting has done to the BRAND. They can talk all they want about being premium and elite and tout rankings in publications that you pay for positioning etc. But Disney is just another BRAND ... another company. No Pixie Dust will change that, even with a significant portion of their USA base having a strange and unnatural connection to it. Unfortunately for Disney, businesspeople in the real world aren't all mentally stunted fanbois who yearn at 36 to relive the childhood they never had and always wanted. They weren't buying into Flamingo Crossings when the economy hadn't gone into one of Leo's bowls of wisdom (are they in the Potter films?) Now ... what a freaking joke. They spent millions of dollars to dig up orange groves and scrub, lay the groundwork for infrastructure, built access roads and added some landscaping and guess what? FC will NEVER happen. They'll likely dump the land to the highest bidder as soon as they possibly can and some more ugliness will encroach even closer to WDW with Disney having no control of it (just like Old Dead Guy Walt wanted). Even in 2005, this would have made no sense. They have no freaking idea how to run their business. None.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Whoa...where is the evidence that the parks are for sale?>> Evidence? You mean a smoking gun? Or just duct tape and chloroform? You won't find any of that. But some pretty compelling talk in the 'Disney Parks on the Market ...?' thread ... very easy to miss with almost 800 posts (wait, that sounded almost a bit passive aggressive, sorry!)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Absolutely braindead. These guys are selling chunks of property off in a fire sale fashion and they are completely out of their league when it comes to this industry.>> Are you bashing the good men and women of TDO, who are trying to do their best to balance the need for guests to have MAGICal WDW vacations with the need to constantly increase profits quarterly while working in the worst economy in our lifetimes?!?!? I mean, I hope you are. I certainly would. Anyone with a modicum of common sense, business sense and creativity would do better. But I just want to make sure I'm not misreading? ;-)
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA While I'm not excusing Disney's handling of Pleasure Island to Hyperion Wharf to ...nothing... I do wonder about the sustainability of these kinds of giant and expensive entertainment complexes like Pleasure Island. Heck, Bob Snow toiled with Church Street Station in downtown Orlando for years -- since 1971 I think -- and it just never really caught on for the long-term. Disney Cast Members used to go to 'nickel beer' at Phineus Phogg's, but that was 25 years ago. What's Church Street Station like today? Defunct again? Pleasure Island was fun when it first opened. I was there. And it was filled with lots of my fellow, young, single Disney cast members who were working at the resort at that time. But seriously, how long could 'Mannequins' exist as it was? Even the 'Comedy Warehouse'? Or the fabulous 'Adventurer's Club'? How many times can you visit the same nightclub before it becomes tedious? And so it goes... Is it wrong for me to yearn for the days of The Walt Disney World Village? Where stores like Sir Edward Haberdasher, Village Spirits, Von Otto's Antiques, Country Address sat along side of other 'resort' type shops where you could actually buy things other than Disney souvenirs and candy and junk? Remember when stores existed in The Contemporary and The Polynesian and The Grand Floridian that sold clothing and not just junk? Back in the early days -- even up to 1986 when I first visited the resort -- The Village was a place where you could catch your breath from the 'go-go-go' nature of the park. Kind of like what The Disneyland Hotel grounds used to be like before the giant path from Disneyland / California Adventure led guests through Downtown Disney and right into the Disneyland Hotel. Now this latest XPExtreme thing has me guessing that 'vacations' will just become more Type-A than ever before. Wonder if and when the pendulum will swing the other way, and people will be able to calm the heck down during a vacation.
Originally Posted By standor The walt disney world village was a place I loved to go to.It was a place to relax. It looked like a comic book town and everything was spread out. Chef Mickey was a great place when it was in the village.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> Now this latest XPExtreme thing has me guessing that 'vacations' will just become more Type-A than ever before. Wonder if and when the pendulum will swing the other way, and people will be able to calm the heck down during a vacation. << I suspect some of the people commando-ing through WDW, trying to do as much as they possibly can and using every available minute to injest some of that Disney magic, are doing so because they want to get their money's worth. When WDW was perceived to be a better value, then perhaps people didn't feel like they needed to squeeze something into every minute of their vacation. You can imagine the guy from Indiana who gets ticked off that he has to wait 15 minutes for a monorail (let's say) because that's 15 minutes that will prevent him from riding Pirates for the third time this trip. WDW isn't the value it used to be, and I suspect that has something to do with the way people view their time there -- and also probably helps account for some of the verbal tongue lashings you overhear in the parks (like when the dad berates his child for throwing away some french fries that you would've sworn were coated in gold).
Originally Posted By sjhym333 Jim, I remember nickle beer. Those were great times. Snow sold Church Street and the place started to take a dive. At the same time Disney decided it wanted to keep people on property and opened PI and the DTD expansion. It finally killed Church Street. Several people have tried to resurrect Church Street including Snow himself. About three years ago someone took over Cheyenne Saloon and started nickle beer again. It never caught on. Today there are several restautants in that area including a very popular Hamburger Mary;s across the street but nothing has really stuck at the old Church Street building. The hope was that the new Orlando Arena would help that but I just think the complex is difficult to sell especially the very large Cheyenne with its already definate theme. No, your not alone or wrong in your feelings about the Walt Disney World Village. For me it was a better place to go rather than the current DTD. I am not sure that the concept would fly today but I favor the old Village concept over the current garbage that is offered at DTD. I also agree about the resort stores. I think the old stores gave a certain aire of sophistication to the resort hotels. Better than the same stuff and style of the park shops. Of course I am getting old I guess. I sound like my dad when I say I miss the old days.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Very well put Jim! I too miss the LBV Village. Very much, a way better charming Floridian vibe. I have nice memories of the DLH grounds, but I do think the Anaheim Downtown Disney was a great upgrade for the resort.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Great points from all. Leo nailed guests trying to milk value in absence of past value. Hence the growth of ddp. I also miss the sophisticated shopping options both at the village and at the hotels Dolphin still offers a little of that vibe
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Sophistication was a word you'd use to describe many aspects of WDW in the 70s and 80s, maybe even early 90s too. There was a thread I started a few months back, when you were away, showing some YouTube footage of the 1987 WDW Resort TV loops. So much classier than Aswad doing her over the top ditz act. No one will ever say the WDW of the 21st century is sophisticated. When you are serving bumpkins in shorts and Goofy tees at fine dining locales well ... they aren't fine dining any longer. But whole 'nother subject.
Originally Posted By SeventyOne <Heck, Bob Snow toiled with Church Street Station in downtown Orlando for years -- since 1971 I think -- and it just never really caught on for the long-term.> In the 80s, Church St. Station was the #4 attraction in Florida. The place was huge. PI killed it, because PI was designed to kill it--Eisner wanted that money. The Adventurers Club was cut in half because Eisner went downtown, saw the line at Cheyenne Saloon and decided DtD needed a country bar. It was all about pirating that very lucrative market. <What's Church Street Station like today? Defunct again?> Actually enjoying a bit of a renaissance since PI closed (and since the city let them shut it down to vehicle traffic on weekend nights again). Almost exclusively locals, but a quite a few bars/clubs.
Originally Posted By SeventyOne <Not only what you saw about Flamingo Crossings is true, but Disney didn't want to have any operational skin in the game! How are you going to attract retailers to that spit of land if you aren't even going to operate a Disney store or Disney restaurant.> Great point, would totally agree. Both FC and PI/HW need a Disney "weenie"--are there any TDO suits left who know what that means? <I will say, in response to your point SJHYM, is that if Disney was making a profit, but they saw the type of rents they could receive from third parties on what would be considered a very valuable retail site, I can totally seeing them giving up PI profits in exchange for what at the time would have been HUGE projected rents without the responsibility of being the operator.> In fairness, having an inkling as to how much PI made, yeah, $8 million a year PLUS 30% of the revenue from 8 high-end restaurants would have dwarfed it. But...the idea that DtD could ever support 8 new "grown-up" restaurants is laughable. Again, the demographics/image were just not there. Closing the clubs in anticipation of that money is like me quitting my day job in anticipation of all the money I'll earn giving my $400 tours of Magic Kingdom. Sure, I could clear $100k a year...but only if I can find 5 fanboi marks a week. High-end restaurant execs apparently aren't Disney marks.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>> So much classier than Aswad doing her over the top ditz act. No one will ever say the WDW of the 21st century is sophisticated. <<<< ...Well... I would agree 1000% that WDW is not marketed to be a classy place. ...but... There are still several experiences in WDW that are classy and sophisticated. The Plaza for dinner... WS at Sunset... Dining at the Poly or DAKL... Main Street at Christmas... ...Granted, these are far and few in between, but Disney hasn't lost it's soul entirely. (just about 98.99999 freaking percent! Sigh)
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>But...the idea that DtD could ever support 8 new "grown-up" restaurants is laughable. Again, the demographics/image were just not there. Closing the clubs in anticipation of that money is like me quitting my day job in anticipation of all the money I'll earn giving my $400 tours of Magic Kingdom. Sure, I could clear $100k a year...but only if I can find 5 fanboi marks a week. High-end restaurant execs apparently aren't Disney marks.<< Exactly. They might be great at operating character meet and greets, but they had no clue what they were doing or shepherding in the real estate industry. Completely out of their league.
Originally Posted By Pentacat >>There was a thread I started a few months back, when you were away, showing some YouTube footage of the 1987 WDW Resort TV loops.<< Here's the video and it is definitely worth a watch. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72vfxUWDfbg&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...=related</a> Brought a tear to my eye....the WDW of my youth.
Originally Posted By standor The video brought back pleasant memories. The old villiage was like an oasis in a desert. A great place to relax in a hectic Disneyworld. It was much more like Disney than the present downtown.
