I just realized what was missing from the election

Originally Posted By RoadTrip

As someone who spent all of his working years at the University of Minnesota I feel your pain. Fortunately I retired 17 months ago before the anger at state employees really got started. What amazes me is that the general public somehow thinks that wages paid to government employees go down a black hole and never get back into the economy. What a bunch of BS. Don't we buy cars, clothes, and houses just like everyone else?

Conservatives like to see tax cuts as the solution to all problems. In reality, government spending has a greater multiplier effect than tax cuts. Tax cuts have a multiplier effect, but not the same effect as direct government spending.

Yes, that is Keynesian economics, which current conservatives tend to despise. The fact of the matter though is that Keynesian economics got us out of the Great Depression, through World War II, and helped fuel the post-war expansion. Even Richard Nixon, in 1971, stated "I am now a Keynesian in economics".

Of course when has something like proven economic theory ever made a bit of difference to a tea bagger?

 

Originally Posted By disneydad109

35 years with the gov. shot, broke both legs,both arms ,1 shoulder . I guess I never earned that monthly check.

 

Originally Posted By skinnerbox

<<I guess I never earned that monthly check.>>

You're retired military? Over 35 years in the military?

So... you don't you get to shop on base?

You don't have VA healthcare?

Putting in 35 years also means you were part of the Vietnam era, even if you didn't serve in Vietnam. Those veterans still got the generous GI bill and VA housing allotment our fathers and grandfathers got from serving during WWII.

So what if you don't get a monthly check.

You get some of the best healthcare in the country and access to cheaper goods and services including the ability to buy a house without a huge downpayment.

Quit whining like you haven't received anything.

 

Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder

I think he was being facetious. I think he's saying after all he's been through, he's earned it.

 

Originally Posted By fkurucz

"I think he was being facetious. I think he's saying after all he's been through, he's earned it."

While I understand that those who put their time into their government jobs feel that they earned their pensions, they need to understand what it looks like from the other side.

A) The federal government is running trillion dollar deficits, in part, to pay retirement benefits for federal employess, including retired military. This is unsustainable and eventually taxes will have to increase substantially to cover these unfunded benefits.

B) State and municipal employee pensions plans are woefully underfunded. Case in point: Here in Colorado the state pension fund is projected to be depleted in 10 years, as in ZERO balance. In order to pay the state pensions on a pay as you go basis the state budget will have to increase 50%, which once again mean a HUGE tax increase. Most states are in similar dire straits.

C) Few workers in the private sector will get any kind of pension. Yet they will be asked to shoulder huge tax increases to fund pensions for gov't workers. And I'm not talking about tax rates increasing 2 or 3 basis points. Think double digits.

So this is a train wreck waiting to happen. Do you think that taxpayers will meekly accept the higher taxes to benefit a minority? I don't think so.

My conclusion is that if you are a younger state or muni employee that the best you can hope for is a discounted pension benefit when you retire, and possibly none at all.

Federal employees will be sheltered longer as Uncle Sam can borrow money from the Federal Reserve. Raising taxes will be hard for the Fed gov't, but I expect there will be pressure to kill social security and use the payroll tax to fund federal spending.

 

Originally Posted By fkurucz

"Quit whining like you haven't received anything."

If he served 35 years in the military he's getting a pension that most people can only dream about.

 

Originally Posted By alexbook

From previous posts, I gather that dd109 spent some years in the military and some years as a cop.

 

Originally Posted By disneydad109

spend time in the service,after i left the sevice I worked for the goverment in several diffrent capacities. 35 years total service to protect you and keep you safe. Glad to do the job but happy to be able to enjoy my retirement that I feel I earned every penny of.

 

Originally Posted By fkurucz

Just remember dd109 that you are expecting people who have no pensions to fund your own.

Pensions have become virtually non existant in the private sector, and when the SHTF when funding dries up don't be surprised if there is a taxpayer revolt against funding your pension.

 

Originally Posted By RoadTrip

<<Just remember dd109 that you are expecting people who have no pensions to fund your own.

Pensions have become virtually non existant in the private sector, and when the SHTF when funding dries up don't be surprised if there is a taxpayer revolt against funding your pension.>>

Government jobs almost always pay considerably less than equivalent jobs in the private sector. They traditionally have used good health and retirement benefits as a way to attract employees in lieu of higher salaries. Is it fair that after a lifetime of trading salary for benefits, to have those benefits taken away?

I could see curtailing retirement benefits for new employees, but government would soon have to increase salaries to remain competitive. As we can see in this thread, government employees have been made a popular whipping boy without much justification.

U.S. state and federal governments are the most efficient governments in the world... one of the reasons we can get by with the lowest personal income tax of almost any Western nation even while supporting the world's largest and most expensive military.

 

Originally Posted By disneydad109

HA HA ,you forget my freinds ! Now I am OLD !!!!!!!!!!!

 

Originally Posted By ADMIN

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Originally Posted By fkurucz

"Government jobs almost always pay considerably less than equivalent jobs in the private sector."

Not anymore they don't. I see jobs on the USAJobs website in my field that pay 20-30% more than the going wage in the private sector.

 

Originally Posted By fkurucz

"This in and of itself is not a reason to cut off government pensions. Period. It sure doesn't remedy the fact a private sector employee doesn't have one, if that is the case."

As I said before, pensionless, private sector employees who are now paid less that their public sector counterparts will need to shoulder heavy new burdens to continue funding pensions for the public sector.

Local taxes in Colorado will need to rise 50 PERCENT to cover the unfunded liabilities for state workers pensions by 2020. Other states face similar scenarios.

The bottom line is actually very simple: There is no money. The states can't borrow and they won't be able to raise taxes without sparking a taxpayer revolt. And the Feds cannot continue to borrow a trillion dollars every year, that day of reckoning is closer than most people think.

Gov't workers are going to have to share the burden whether they like it or not, there is no way taxpayers will be able to absorb the pension program liabilities, especially not with globalization nipping away at their wages. And that's assuming they would be amenable to even doing that, which they won't be.

 

Originally Posted By fkurucz

"A big FU to those guys. Pay up suckers, we knew what we were doing."

I hate to tell you this, the suckers WON'T be paying up. Kiss your state/muni pension goodbye, unless your state was responsible enough to fund it properly, which as far as I know none were.

The pension plan managers for most states were counting on 8% annual returns to deliver the pensions they promised. Problem is returns have been closer to 0% over the past 10 years, hence the reason why the programs are all woefully underfunded and will be depleted in the next 10 years on average.

And as globalization continues to batter the private sector there will be even less money to tax.

 

Originally Posted By disneydad109

It comes down to the fact that everyone made a choice in how earn a living. I think some folks got thier money up front and (like myself) are finding them selves better off later in life.
We all had the chance to go in the service ,we all had the chance to work for uncle sam. just because not everyone made that choice is no reason to get nasty about it now.
I can't tell you how many birthdays I missed,how many xmas i had to work, how many 1st days of school dad was away,so please don't get mad at me just cause i lucked out and am alive to enjoy life for a little bit.I hope yu all find happiness when you retire.

 

Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder

"I hate to tell you this, the suckers WON'T be paying up. Kiss your state/muni pension goodbye, unless your state was responsible enough to fund it properly, which as far as I know none were."

Hate to tell you, but nope. This issue has already been thoroughly legally vetted in the event it reaches a court situtation. Anyone presently in the pipeline WILL get what's coming to them under their present agreements. Whether it's taxes or some other means, it gets funded. Going forward, and it sure seems your answers omit this, restructuring the pensions to allow for more employee contributions, higher retirement ages, other factors, will help alleviate some or most of the problems. Retroactive changes most definitely will not occur.

Remember, myself for example, I don't pay into Social Security. I did for 22 years before I went public, but whatever I might get will be cut pro rata by my length of government service and amount of money I make while in government work. I'll have been in government work for 20 years by the time I'm done. I'll be lucky to see even 50% of what I might have gotten otherwise out of Social Security. Depending upon how much I earn in the next ten years, I might not get anything that I paid in. Ironically, you'll likely get my money. Many of my colleagues have been lifelong government workers and have never paid into Social Security (and leave the arguments about whether SS will be around. It will.). Consequently, they won't get any. You're sitting there telling them to kiss their defined pension goodbye, leaving them with almost nothing in retirement. I'll answer for them- that bullsh!t doesn't fly. At least you private workers get the Social Security. For all of us to be told we now get nothing, well, imagine our love for you.

There's no question the defined pension system needs to be addressed, but it will still exist. SEIU here in California, the biggest and baddest union we have, has already negotiated contracts that don't include raises for the foreseeable future as well as higher medical costs for the employee. Pensions are next. Many other public unions have already begun to change things going forward. There ARE ways around the problem.

 

Originally Posted By RoadTrip

Maybe we need to take a page from the Tea Party manual and all go get concealed carry permits so we can defend ourselves against radical conservatives if it ever becomes necessary.

;-)

 

Originally Posted By mawnck

>> Is it fair that after a lifetime of trading salary for benefits, to have those benefits taken away?<<

The whining about fairness is going to be epic pretty soon. Unfortunately, the voices of fairness are no match for the voices of reality.

>>It comes down to the fact that everyone made a choice in how earn a living.<<

>>This issue has already been thoroughly legally vetted in the event it reaches a court situtation. Anyone presently in the pipeline WILL get what's coming to them under their present agreements.<<

No, it comes down to the fact that you won't be getting your government pension because there's no money and you are not GM or BofA. The government will not pay you what they can't pay you, courts and taxes be danged.

>>Social Security. Depending upon how much I earn in the next ten years, I might not get anything that I paid in. Ironically, you'll likely get my money.<<

Your money and mine has already been got. We won't get anything. Same reason as above.

>>There ARE ways around the problem.<<

Nope. Math always triumphs. Neither one of us will be retiring.

 

Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder

"Not anymore they don't. I see jobs on the USAJobs website in my field that pay 20-30% more than the going wage in the private sector."

Anecdotal. Since if you knew my true name you could look up what my salary was last year, due to the wonders of the Internet and invasion of my privacy (and will be exactly the same salary for the foreseeable future), I grossed $114,821.76 last year. I will that this year, in 2012 and maybe 2013. I have 11 years in as an attorney. If I were private, I'd be at partner status and make at least three times that for the type of law that I do.

As the passage you quoted said, it was "almost always", not always.