Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<My first trip was in 95, and it was the most magical one. Everything seemed perfect then. >> If you think it was perfect then, boy, you should have seen it in 1985.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros If it makes you feel better, the last time I was at IOA, the Dr Suess playground area was closed for a "brownout" as you call it. And it was in an area with water, but only about two inches. So, at least the poopy little kids are making it across town and marking their territory over there too.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I'm also a shareholder -- and not an insignificant one share type.< ditto here, maybe another reason we look at WDW from a more objective viewpoint...I have a lot invested monetarily and emotionally with Disney...so to be told I am whining because there are things that are not up to snuff...well I run my own division of the corporation the same way...if I see things that are not right I call people on them, and expect them to be rectified. I don't turn a blind eye and pretend it is not there..that doesn't make me appreciate my place of employment any less either...the main differenec being I have authority to do something about items at work..at WDW or anywhere else I can only voice my opinion.. as a customer, a shareholder, a DVC member or however else I get the chance to be heard. IMHO...there is far too much 'blind eye to the problems' in this country right now -- whether it be no health care for a large % of our children, unemployment rates that do not reflect the true nature of the issues in the workplace , including off shoring and the majoriy of people who stop looking for jobs or take lower level jobs for a fraction of themoney and no benefits, public education that is a mess in many states, etc etc.... So maybe now I will hear the mantra- American love it or leave it also... this is not 'whining', it is not ignoring the problems and trying to make a difference.. quite different things. Instead of whining like some do about education issues, I ran for school board and was elected to a seat I have held for 12 years..and feel I have made a difference. I volunteer at the Chicago Public Schools ( I am a product of myself) -which are in disarray..to try and help kids instead of just whining about it. So if anyone is tired of the whining, it is me..by people who acknowledge no issues, and offer no solutions..
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I'm tired of all this silly whining... I don't see what you do so I say it does not exist... you say it does... but I leave Disney with a great feeling , I doubt you can say the same for about yourselves.. IMO ... >> I'm tired of all the apologist rhetoric. I could take you around and show you things that aren't show quality, aren't clean, aren't maintained and yet, you'd turn it around and tell me it's my fault and it doesn't bother you. Maybe it just comes down to standards. Mine are a lot higher than yours. I hold Disney up to what they've always touted themselves as being -- the best. And unless I've dealt with one of my Disney 'pals', I leave WDW with a HUGE smile on my face, eagerly anticipating my next visit.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <vbdad... It is always possible for WDW to regain its prior glory. Just look at where the Twins are now compared to where they were in May. ;-) Overall I look at the increase/decrease in various aspects of the WDW experience as a significant gain since our first trip in 1991. Some things, primarily cleanliness, have gone down. Other things have greatly improved. < trippy, I never said the place was a dump, although you'd never get that from all the 'whining' comments, but as you acknlowledge - there are issues. and cleanliness and maintenane are 2 things that set Disney apart from others since the beginning, so I see those as important take aways... and we've been down this list before, and there is an equally long list of things we have lost: 20,000 leagues skyride Mr Toads Wild Ride Most of the backstage tour@ Studios A lot of live entertainment all the unique shops on Main street Timekeeper no riverboat for how long now ? keelboats ? Wonders of Life pavillion daytime fireworks shows @ EPCOT River Country Disney Institute and many of the above you mention are replacements- some better than the original- some not so. Test track -- World of Motion Mission Space -- Horizons Mickey's Philharmagic - Legend of L K so let's not make them all out to be net adds I love AK and the fact that it was not an all day park didn't bother me-- those were all net adds...but in the meantime the Studios have fallen a lot in a very short period of time.. and the last MK e ticket add was Splash 14 years ago.. And yes overall I think there are better resorts..one reason is because there are more to choose from..and many of my favorites OKW - Boardwalk would not be there if not for DVC monies...of which I gladly kicked in... What bothers me is that if anyone makes a comment like the maintenance has slipped, somehow yo become a person who only goes to WDW to spot problems -- yeah like I spent $10K yr to travel there to become a member of OSHA..I mean how ludicrous ! No , i do not cover my eyes and pretend things that are real , are not...I do live in the real world altough I like to visit a piece of fantasy. I want it to remain fantasy and not become an extension of the world I live in the other 49 - 50 weeks of the year...so i guess I am bad
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<But is WDW a significantly better vacation destination in 2006 than it was in 1991? Absolutely in my opinion -- no contest.>> Absolutely not in my opinion -- no contest. Sorry, Trippy, you're using the bigger is better mentality. Yes. There are so many more resorts. One extra theme park. One new water park (although an old one sits rotting away). Much of what was added is great, no doubt about it. I can't (and wouldn't) argue that point. But all the important elements that made Disney, Disney have fallen. Things like: Cleanliness (everything from resort hotel rooms to park bathrooms to dining areas); Upkeep (everything from painting and preventative work to keeping landscaped areas looking their best to not having anything major look in shoddy shape). Show quality (take a ride on Mansion or Splash Mtn or Space Mtn); CMs (they are now almost entirely parttimers, most from college or international programs, and are a shadow of what they once were; everyone had a knowledge of English); Disney Details (costumes used to be unique and you wouldn't find a Pirate in line next to you at Wendy's; shops sold unique merchandise; themes were carried out; entertainment played a much greater role and was varied; characters weren't stuck everywhere; food wasn't cheap but it was high quality; you got a real guidebook not a basic map; pinwhatting?; etc ...) Freshness (lousy parades didn't go on ad infinitum; seasonal entertainment was always around and you didn't have't pay extra for it; extra hours? -- yeah for everyone at certain times like summer and holiday periods I could, as you know, go on. But those elements above are why I got hooked on Disney to begin with. You just took for granted that on July 4th at 8 p.m. you could walk into a MK restroom and it would be spotless. You took it for granted that the CMs at City Hall really cared about you as an individual guest and weren't looking to blow off your problem as insignificant and if that didn't work, throw a free character breakfast or a free day at you. Above all, management cared. They respcted their guests and cast and it showed in every aspect of the Disney experience. Now? Management is contemptful towards the cast and any guest that expects the old Disney. I'm sorry, but bigger just doesn't equal better. And you shouldn't have to sacrifice quality for quantity or because management expanded too much, too fast.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<So maybe now I will hear the mantra- American love it or leave it also...>> Maybe that's why pixie's post got under my skin because it's is the same as the love it (or love the current administration) or leave it mentality. I LOVE the USA. I LOVE WDW. I HATE the way my country and one of fave vacation destinations are being run. I have NO intention of moving or stopping my WDW visits. <<this is not 'whining', it is not ignoring the problems and trying to make a difference.. quite different things.>> I don't understand why this issue is so hard for some to grasp. <<Instead of whining like some do about education issues, I ran for school board and was elected to a seat I have held for 12 years..and feel I have made a difference.>> Wow! I'm impressed. I didn't know that. I do hope you leave the princess costume, Cubs makeup, DVC pin lanyard and tiara at home when you go to meetings, though ;-) <<I volunteer at the Chicago Public Schools ( I am a product of myself) -which are in disarray..to try and help kids instead of just whining about it. So if anyone is tired of the whining, it is me..by people who acknowledge no issues, and offer no solutions..>> There's a fine line, though. Some people here may want to give Disney too much unsolicted information. Basically TWDC uses forums like these as unpaid consultants to gauge certain things about the company. That's why the first time I was here I did give ways of improving things. I don't anymore. I just point out the problems. If Disney's execs can't figure out how to run/improve their product my hunch is they don't belong in the positions they're in. And, on that note, let's all welcome WDW's New Sr. VP of Ops -- taking over for the dearly departed Lee 'I am not an Amway salesman Cockerell', a round of applause here ... for ... ERIN WALLACE!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <<<Instead of whining like some do about education issues, I ran for school board and was elected to a seat I have held for 12 years..and feel I have made a difference.>> Wow! I'm impressed. I didn't know that. I do hope you leave the princess costume, Cubs makeup, DVC pin lanyard and tiara at home when you go to meetings, though ;-) < In the area I live, any of the above would be quite the outrage..LOL ! Board meetings are quite the suit and button down shirt affairs...but making a difference for the kids is such a reward..it's totally worth it.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I really do hope that some of the comments here are taken into account for management @ Disney. I always try and keep them as to the point as I can ( unless something like the Playground just pushes all my buttons) - As I mentioned I just completed my survey for the last visit @ OKW. One would hope that a survey in which I ranked everything at or near the top end of the scale however took the time to explain why I think the menu cutbacks @ Olivia's ( especially lunch and signature items at a Key West themed resort like conch fritters being whittled away - were a problem, that someone would at least take it seriously. I have to believe mgmt there expects a certain % of people to have an issue with it, but probably has a pain threshold at a certain % point up until which the cost savings will take precedence. Usually how any cut back in anything is measured. I hope by adding my concern, albeit one lonely voice, it is the one that pushes that % over the point where they feel comfortable..and maybe will return a true gem of a restaurant to the glory it held and deserves in it's cornerstone DVC resort. Disney management is in a pretty nice position...they have a rich heritage, a loyal fan basse and many wonderful things on which to build...which allows them to 'get away' with certain other shortcomings as long as they don't become, the norm or overwhelming. Many businesses do not have that cushion, however it is not unbreakable and they know it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Sorry, Trippy, you're using the bigger is better mentality. Yes. There are so many more resorts. One extra theme park. One new water park (although an old one sits rotting away). Much of what was added is great, no doubt about it. I can't (and wouldn't) argue that point. But all the important elements that made Disney, Disney have fallen. >> If I visited WDW as often as you do I'm sure I would agree 100%. I don't. I visit WDW once or twice a year at most. I like to have a lot to do while I'm there. I like having a variety of really nice resorts to choose from. Do I like the fact that restrooms aren't as clean as they used to be? No. Do I like the fact that some major attractions have closed? Eh... I don't mind nearly as much as vbdad. The only ones I miss much are Toad and Horizons. Do I like the fact that most stores at WDW are now selling much the same stuff? Well... split decision. I spend less now and that's not a bad thing! I also do more of my shopping at Epcot's World Showcase where I think you can still get some pretty unique stuff. Overall, I think I avoid some of the worst problems by visiting WDW primarily during January. The crowds are smaller and so are the cleanliness problems. I think a major portion of the cleanliness issue is that many people today are far bigger slobs than they were in the past. Or at least more of the slobs are now going to Disney World than used to... I'm not sure which. In view of this I would strongly support measures to minimize the "riff-raff". I would have no problem with WDW maintaining the same standard that many golf courses maintain. No cutoffs. If you wear shorts they are Bermudas. All shirts must be collared. No tank tops or T-shirts. Of course if Disney tried something like this they would be inundated with protests and probably lawsuits. So I really do see your point. But for the most part I'm able to tolerate the problem areas because of the improvement in other areas. If I went there on a monthly basis I probably would not feel the same way.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I really do hope that some of the comments here are taken into account for management @ Disney. I always try and keep them as to the point as I can ( unless something like the Playground just pushes all my buttons) - >> Well, if you post in a thread I'm involved in you stand a very, very, very good chance of having it read by someone at a high level of TWDC. ... That's not false bravado, BTW, just a fact I've been told by Disney themselves. <<As I mentioned I just completed my survey for the last visit @ OKW. One would hope that a survey in which I ranked everything at or near the top end of the scale however took the time to explain why I think the menu cutbacks @ Olivia's ( especially lunch and signature items at a Key West themed resort like conch fritters being whittled away - were a problem, that someone would at least take it seriously.>> I stopped taking their surveys years ago because I felt they weren't trying to find out what I really thought, but rather justify choices they had already made or were planning on making. My advice would be to find out who the area Food and Beverage manager is for OKW, get an email and phone number and contact them directly. <<I have to believe mgmt there expects a certain % of people to have an issue with it, but probably has a pain threshold at a certain % point up until which the cost savings will take precedence. Usually how any cut back in anything is measured. I hope by adding my concern, albeit one lonely voice, it is the one that pushes that % over the point where they feel comfortable..and maybe will return a true gem of a restaurant to the glory it held and deserves in it's cornerstone DVC resort.>> Who knows? But your logic as for how they push their cutbacks is quite accurate. <<Disney management is in a pretty nice position...they have a rich heritage, a loyal fan basse and many wonderful things on which to build...which allows them to 'get away' with certain other shortcomings as long as they don't become, the norm or overwhelming. Many businesses do not have that cushion, however it is not unbreakable and they know it. >> Like I've said, I'm cautiously optimistic that Bob Iger is going to change the TOXIC corporate culture that has existed at TWDC since the mid-90s. But, in every division, it starts in management. My patience is wearing very thin with the same execs being recycled and shifted around when they aren't any good to begin with.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I think a major portion of the cleanliness issue is that many people today are far bigger slobs than they were in the past. Or at least more of the slobs are now going to Disney World than used to... I'm not sure which.>> I think it's in life in general, BUT it doesn't matter. It's Disney's job to keep their parks sparkling and if that means they need to double their custodial budget so be it. They have money for what they want to have money for. <<In view of this I would strongly support measures to minimize the "riff-raff". I would have no problem with WDW maintaining the same standard that many golf courses maintain. No cutoffs. If you wear shorts they are Bermudas. All shirts must be collared. No tank tops or T-shirts. >> I don't know if I agree with that, but they definitely need to enforce some of the basics. Women entering the parks wearing bikinis (not water parks here) and 11-year-old girls walking around with shorts so tight that half their buns are sticking out, and guys that take their shirts off to watch the parades etc ... that crap has got to be dealt with. FWIW, I couldn't believe it when I recently went to DLP and while in line for Buzz Lightyear had a 15-year-old in line in front of me with the F-word in huge letters on the back of his tee. I know Paris is a bit different, but how he was ever let in is beyond me. And, no, Karl Holz -- the F-word is universal. I would have said something in the US parks, but just let it go.
Originally Posted By Skylardad I'm with Spirit of 74 - bigger is not always better. In WDW's case a "less is more" concept could work wonders had it been realized prior to the explosion of growth in the late 80s and 90s. Unfortunately, WDW has twisted the less is more mentality by equating it to less CMs and more cutbacks equals more profits and bonuses. Meanwhile guests receive less, rather than more, of what they have come to expect from the company. Imagine the potential of service, cleanliness, and quality (that dominated up until the mid 90's) if WDW only had 2, maybe 3, theme parks to maintain as well as fewer resorts. Current management philosophies withheld, the magic that we remember as veteran guests would certainly have retained its glory. I think part of the problem is that guests demand more in quantity - such as rides and attractions - but WDW answered in the 80s and 90s with more parks rather than just more rides within their existing 2 parks. Couple the new parks with numerous, new resorts and you have responded to the guest demands (and your shareholder strategies to keep guests on-property) but you have created a labor shortage. Now your dreams of building an entertainment empire fail to meet expectations in quality and service because you can't find enough people, let alone quality people, to share your vision and uphold your standards. Maybe people visiting WDW realize this or not. If they do, maybe that is why some people grade the park on a curve or turn a blind eye to the issues that are easily recognizable. Who knows - but IMHO this is something that WDW should have been able to forecast when they were planning all of this growth. Knowing what it took to run the resort with just 2 parks and a handful of hotels should have been easy math to calculate what it would take. Let's see, if it takes 20k people to operate the resort now and we add 2 theme parks and a dozen resorts and need 55k people... You see where I'm going with this. Then there is the economics of the payroll that goes with all of this growth. I have a video of some cast members goofing around in the Horizons pavillion and one of the CMs makes a crack about how she's paid $6.30 an hour to put up with guest nonsense. This video is circa mid 80s. Here we are 20+ years later and the starting wage at WDW is just hovering around $7.00 per hour. In 20+ years the starting wage has only increased 70 cents or so? So yes, there is some merit to a previous post that the CMs allow certain behaviors and let things slide because of their pay rate. I can't recall what the minimum wage was in 1985 or 1986 but $6.30 was likely to be well above minimum. The other advantage to maintaining the resort with fewer parks and resorts was the ability for management to be choosy of the CMs hired. Now, they are just happy to get a body to fill a schedule. Lowering the hiring standards for the sake of filling positions allows for the lower starting wage. Unfortunately it becomes harder to enforce your standards. If you do enforce your standards and you start firing CMs you have to replace them in a labor market that is already highly competitive. It is for these reasons that I am so critical of the decline in standards in all departments at WDW. While I love going; have a good time; and enjoy that I have 4 parks to choose from; I also expect that, as a company, WDW owns up to the repsonsibility it has to its guests for maintaining what they have created. If you can't handle it as effectively as it was desinged to be, then find a way to get it to the standards it should be or don't build it. Honestly, I don't know what the answers are to fix the blatant problems. From a guest perspective, I have many ideas, but there is quite a challenge in fixing the problems without cutting into their bottom line. Maybe that is the key answer - take a hit in the bottom line for a while and wow guests and get back the elite status. Then you can justify ticket and hotel rate increases down the road.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>You know what... all of you sing the same song.... its called Whine Whine Whine... deal with it or move on... IMO<< IMHO...it should be you moving along pixiedust. Time for you to go to rehab as you are overloading in pixie dust way too much. If you don't care what others have to say, especially the bad and ugly of WDW..then it's your problem. YOU deal with it. Sad indeed you value a dirty Disney park over some constructive criticism, and this being the ideal place for it since some people around LP appear to be well connected to Disney in the first place.
Originally Posted By demderedoseguys >>You know what... all of you sing the same song.... its called Whine Whine Whine... deal with it or move on... IMO<< It's not so much about whining as it is about caring. I've been married to the same woman for over 30 years. There have been more then a few times where we had our disagreements with one another for whatever reason. By talking things out, we were always able to work out a compromise which made both parties happy and improved our relationship. To just "deal with it" or "move on" is not the way to solve problems and would probably end a lot of marriages. It's by communication that we are able to both identify and solve problems. With my wife, it's talking things out. In this case, it's communicating with one another and with WDW management that will hopefully improve things at the parks.
Originally Posted By tonyanton To Spirit and vbdad...thank you for your honest, yet caring examination of WDW. I'm not one to dwell on the negative, but as someone who has been visiting WDW since the late '70s, I can appreciate what you have to say. I still visit WDW and love much of it, and I have hope that things will improve to at least much closer to what they once were.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^^^^^^^ thank you for that post, it is appreciated as I can honestly say WDW is my favorite place in the world, and I do love it and enjoy it, which is why I care so much...and I know after years of posts that is what drives Spirit also... We all know it will never be perfect, but we also know there are areas they could and should do better...to ensure WDW always stays an elite place to visit.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Honestly, I don't know what the answers are to fix the blatant problems. From a guest perspective, I have many ideas, but there is quite a challenge in fixing the problems without cutting into their bottom line. Maybe that is the key answer - take a hit in the bottom line for a while and wow guests and get back the elite status. Then you can justify ticket and hotel rate increases down the road.>> That is the key -- money. As in investment and reinvestment in the resort. Not in spending it for tacky marketing pseudo celebs. Not in spending it to build more resort inventory. But to spend it in the core product itself. When people say 'Blah, blah, blah. ... Disney can't do that. Blah, blah, blah ... they have to answer to Wall Street ... blah, blah, blah ... the institutional investors don't care if the park restrooms are dirty or that CMs aren't paid a living wage ... blah, blah, blah.' My only response is how many BILLIONS has Disney wasted in the past decade on exec payoffs, sports franchises, ill-advised Internet ventures, overpriced and unneeded TV acquisitions etc ... You need to get back to basics. Buying PIxar was a good first step. Giving John Lasseter some power at WDI also good. Even outsourcing at WDI to the Kirks and Hannas of the world, all good. But that's just a start. And losing execs like Ouimet isn't good either. BTW, Skylardad, I have enjoyed reading your very well thoughtout posts on the subject. Glad to have you here.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<To Spirit and vbdad...thank you for your honest, yet caring examination of WDW. I'm not one to dwell on the negative, but as someone who has been visiting WDW since the late '70s, I can appreciate what you have to say. I still visit WDW and love much of it, and I have hope that things will improve to at least much closer to what they once were. >> Thanks for the kind words. I think ...no, I know, things can change for the better. We just need to remove the narrow-minded execs from the wide screen world.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>It's not so much about whining as it is about caring.<< EXACTLY but the moral majority do not get it. Tough love for WDW to make it better and force management to really make this resort the shining star of Disney's empire.
