Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<It would have to be more than 15 years back. Fifteen years ago (1992) WDW had three parks, 14 resorts, and plenty of traffic lights and busses.>> True, Trippy, but still NOTHING compared with today. To me the early 90s were the end of WDW's second golden age, which ran from about 1983-1995.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Sorry, back on track. I have to agree with vbdad, Spirit and Skylersdad. Having read a number of their posts over the years, their view seems to be the same as mine. We all love Disney (we wouldn't bother with the resorts or LP if we didn't), but it pains us all to see the standards slipping. I long for the days where I would look forward to a new attraction announcement because I knew it would be awesome. Where the streets of the parks were washed down every night, and kept clean everyday. Where live entertainment was everywhere you turned, and free. Long park hours were standard during peak seasons, and there were no extra pay ticketed events. Where you could judge how long you would stand in line by looking at it without Fast Pass to mess it up. Where you didn't have to plan 6 months in advance where you would want to eat (before the entertainment schedules were posted). A time where you would chance upon a character as a complete surprise. All of these experiences have largely been eroded, and while some of the new offerings are great (e.g. Illuminations ROE, or TOT), a number are mediocre or exlusive expereiences (MS, Tarzan Show etc.). I really believe these "negative" posters, and please count me amongst them, are very balanced, and they explain their position. Much more than a pollyanna. I hear people explain their disappointements, but rarely do I hear someone explain what they like about an experience.>> Dave, I have nothing to add to your post because it perfectly states where some of us are coming from. And, believe me, Disney corporate knows it. I just thought the post was so good, I'd quote it again, so no one misses it.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<These conversations sound just like the ones we had about Disneyland during the "Pressler Era." And the complaining people were right. It took too long to repair the damage so those of you who see the changes keep talking!>> Yes. And sadly, because of the corporate mindset at TDA, people died. Innocent guests. <<Since my first trip to WDW was 15 years ago and my second is right now, I can certainly see many differences.>> I'll bet you can. <<First, the resort hotels are great. One seems old and in need of updating (Contemporary), but we are staying at the Beach Club and I don't know when I have had a better hotel!>> I'm glad to hear that. The Beach Club, while thoroughly rehabbed in 2002-03, hasn't been real consistent with upkeep or cleanliness. Happy to hear you're enjoying it. As to the Contemporary, all the rooms are being completely redone and they are, IMHO, by far the best standard Disney resort rooms in Florida. <<Second, the upkeep of Epcot is a bit sad. I'm not talking about litter, in many parts it is showing its age and looks very dated. And for heaven's sake, what did they do to Imagination? Just sad. Perhaps the focus on opening more parks has taken the money from Epcot?>> Yes, it has. It's the bigger is better mentality. The fact that Disney has grown too much, too quickly. The desire to have every Central Florida visitor stay on WDW property and never leave has caused a massive shift in quality. <<My biggest complaint was the lack of CM's. Especially in loading areas. The one CM at BTM had to keep yelling and she looked frazzled. We noticed this many times at other attractions. We also noticed groups of CM's walking around together, or talking in groups, ignoring guests. This was most noticeable in areas where guests were in need of CM's doing their job correctly. >> Yeah. It's hard for WDW to have enough CMs due to wages, of course. Most CMs now are part time and are either college kids, high school kids, international kids or retirees. The complete opposite of when you visited 15 years ago and people were career-Disney vets and EXCEEDING guests expectations was the golden rule. They used to have greeters at every attraction. Then they'd have custodial CMs walking thru the queues, while people were in them, sweeping up. At the loading area you'd have numerous CMs to keep order while today you may have one person greet you, send you to a row and dispatch your vehicle. <<The guests themselves are a trip. I guess over the years I have turned into a laid back San Diegan. I have encountered some amazingly pushy people here at WDW. One woman nearly sat on a guest and shoved her over with her butt to make room for herself and her son to watch a show. No excuse me, no talking at all! Just here's my butt and shove. Many times my wife and I just laughed out loud to keep from getting angry. I love how people pretend you're invisible. That was a new one to me. Looking right at me and plowing rite into me. Or looking at me, talking about me as "people" to their party. I'll refrain from guessing where most of these folks are from so as not to offend, but they all shared an accent that was quit distinct.>> I'll just say that I am always amazed by some of the guest behavior and am truly scared I share the planet with some of these people. <<Overall I think the polish is off at Epcot and the CM's at Magic Kingdom seem grumpy. Mostly the WDW resort seems better than when I was there 15 years ago. We are still having a good time, but I will also agree that if they continue to let upkeep slip it will be bad show. >> Thanks for the report and enjoy the rest of your stay!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<As someone who goes 3 times annually- March, July and November- it seems to me that the during the March and November trips things seem a lot better, especially the food and cleanliness of the parks. Anyone else notice this or am I just less grouchy when I'm not in the heat and humidity of July? >> I don't know. I try not to visit during the summer, but have now the past two years. I always like the vibe at WDW better in the spring -- springbreakers and more of a party atmosphere then the typical stroller brigade. And fall is my favorite time overall. But I think WDW isn't dirtier or the food worse in summer. I just think the product has become so inconsistent. FWIW, I had a great time on my trip a few weeks ago. Even the weather, for a Floridian who hates summers, was quite nice.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Oh, and one other comment that didn't really fit in my other posts on this thread about pointing out the positives as well as the negatives. I do so. Especially when something is better than I expected, like Saratoga Springs -- a 'new' resort experience for me. But I'm also cautious because I know these forums are trolled by Disney execs and their minions. And the corporate mindset pf cutting quality at all costs scares me. I actually dined at three places I had never been before on this trip and I GREATLY enjoyed all of them. But, frankly, I don't want to write about them and why I liked them because I would hate to see them drop the quality and raise the prices -- and that SADLY is how Disney uses people like us as unpaid consultants.
Originally Posted By jcc0621 Last summer when I had a complaint about service at the O'Hana Character Breakfast (i.e rude waiter, spilled coffee on my 76 year old fatherand laughed about it) I write a letter to Jay Rasulo and about 2 weeks later got a very nice PHONE CALL from his office very concerned about this matter. They informed me that they are very concerned about this and were going to send the cast members from this restaurant to extra training and that my letter was going to go into the employees file, etc. I hate to get anyone in trouble becasue I know we all need to wrok, but when service is poor management needs to know. If you decide to go this route, try to have the cm's name (even just first name), the time, and of course the location. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. My mother father went back to this breaksfast several weeks ago and said they had the same waiter, and the service was 1000 time better (I should probably point out at this point that my parents age 70 & 77 are cm's - but I did not mention this in my letter)
Originally Posted By Skylardad Spirit of 74 - sorry to anwer your post some 20 posts later but I'm trying to recover from the WDW double bill from the weekend heat. Crowds at Epcot Friday were very light. At 8:30 pm we commandeered a spot for Illuminations directly across from China and only had about 10 people share the spot. Perhaps it was because it is not the prime real estate for the show, but it is a clear shot of just about all of the key show elements. M:S was a walk on for the green team and 10 minutes for the other. TT was about 30 minutes; Soarin' the obligatory 60, UOE was down again (not closed for a refurb) for the third day this week. Most frustrating was trying to get on JIIwF at 6:55 and being turned away (along with 2 other families) with a cast member pointing at their watch from the other side of the locked doors shaking her head no. At MK Saturday we were there on 2 shifts 9:30am - 12:30pm and again 8:30pm to 11:00pm. Crowds here were larger, but without the EMH the crowds thinned out considerably around parade and fireworks times. In the a.m. we completed 8 attractions while taking plenty of time for pics with visiting family. We basically lolligagged from attraction to attraction and only gave up because of the heat and not the crowds. n the p.m. our place in the parking lot would suggest a very crowded park. We went from row 37 in the a.m. to row 132 in the p.m. But when we got inside the crowds seemed rather tame. We navigated through the 9 pm SM crowd on MS with considerable ease. Overall, this summer (to date) crowds have seemed to be very soft. For example, Friday night at Epcot - if you can walk right on M:S and only wait 30 min. for TT with UOE closed that suggests the crowds were very soft. I overheard a CM in line this past Thursday at the local grocery store, who does training (had a Disney U uniform on), talking to his cashier friend about the crowds and he said that management was being mum on the crowds and capacity. Bottom line, the crowds are light and the parks are very do-able with wait times - it's just the heat that can kill you.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Overall, this summer (to date) crowds have seemed to be very soft. For example, Friday night at Epcot - if you can walk right on M:S and only wait 30 min. for TT with UOE closed that suggests the crowds were very soft. I overheard a CM in line this past Thursday at the local grocery store, who does training (had a Disney U uniform on), talking to his cashier friend about the crowds and he said that management was being mum on the crowds and capacity. Bottom line, the crowds are light and the parks are very do-able with wait times - it's just the heat that can kill you.>> That's what I've heard too. It appears that attendance is softer than expected. I kinda though as much when it wasn't that busy earlier this month, except on July 4th. And heading into prime hurricane season and with gas prices heading to the stratosphere, I have the feeling things will get even slower.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 It's not only gas prices, but everything else that they have driven up also. People are getting nickel and dimed to death the last 2 years and with the average American owing $10K+ on credit cards..and the cost of everything rising...there may be some reevaluation of finances in some households. This will affect theme parks and sporting events ...even with a few blockbusters, movie theatre attendance is also lagging behind where the industry expected to be. I know the company line is the economy is hot hot hot, ( and I am a GOP voter ( usually) - it simply is not so..and it is beginning to show. Credit card companies doubled and tripled minimum payments for people...and suddenly that debt was less manageable..so I think the thinner crowds are an early sign...not that I expect things to empty out..but are some people going to be restricted, you bet.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost <<I am not saying that you are not correct. What I am saying is express your opinion and let other express theirs and make your own decisions for yourself. In this particular case you made Pixie's words come across sounding like a casual comment and you sounded like an obnoxious twit.>> Really? If the label fits ..<<<<<< First of all, let me apologise for my obvious name calling there. I don't usually do that. This is the thing, I get so tired of hearing the phrase, "Disney Apologist" that I could scream. Because someone enjoys there experience instead of searching for something wrong does not make them an apologist, it makes them people that want to feel good about that experience. I am also a shareholder but so what? That doesn't necessarily make me a bad person because I enjoy the experience. It was mentioned that it was almost a joke how trash didn't have a chance to hit the ground before it was picked up back in the 80's and that was true. What was also true was that people were able to smoke anywhere in the park and most of the janitorial staff was there to pick up cigarette butts and along with that trash. No smoking or smoking restrictions eliminated the need for that large a group because it was not as large a volume as before. If anyone had a memory you could also remember the 90's, when I attended quite often. The place literally stunk. I walked on Main Street and could smell garbage wafting in the air, I was served rancid ketchup with my hot dog and basically told that it was just tough luck, guess you need to buy another one. The place was filthy, a number of the AA's were not working. I almost decided not to go again. My experience tells me that it is much better now then it was then. Your experience might be different then mine but my saying that WDW is, overall, a pretty nice place does not make me an apologist. Can it be better? I'm sure it can. Is it already better then most places one can go to? I believe it is. Another point I would like to make is that saying why not go to Universal or Sea World is NOT the same as saying love it or leave it. It is stating a fact. If you don't like a store you go to a different one. WDW is not now and never will be a sovereign nation that one owes allegiance too. It is a business in the business of entertaining. If it fulfills your needs in that area then you go again, if it doesn't then you go someplace else. If you don't do it that way then you are just complaining for complaining sake. It is a futile exercise. VBdad said write letters, call, send e-mails, whatever but it isn't necessary to put people down that like the experience for the experience itself and not the expected but never achieved perfection that seems to be prevalent in the "non-apologist" viewpoint. This is a usually very HOT topic and I have once again been sucked into it. It saddens me that I have been a member of this "family" board for about 5 years and yet am not recognised as someone that might just have a little knowledge of the Disney outfit myself. Instead when I say what I say I am told to move on, who needs you! That is the reason that I do not participate very often anymore. It, as I said before, is the same people, making the same argument over and over again as if it is some holy obligation to change everyone's minds. And then when the argument, excuse me discussion, becomes a stand off, we resort to talking about the "Cubs". It is just sad.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <but my saying that WDW is, overall, a pretty nice place does not make me an apologist< no it doesn't, but telling someone who says there are issues to shut up and cease and desist because they are just looking for issues that don't exist except in our minds -( read the one quote from pixie- if it is still there ) <Another point I would like to make is that saying why not go to Universal or Sea World is NOT the same as saying love it or leave it.< yes it is..at that time is was move to Canada if you don't like it and leave America to those who turn a blind eye..exactly the same thing <If you don't do it that way then you are just complaining for complaining sake< the part that I still cannot believe you are missing. If your local school is not doing what they are supposed to be doing, you complain and do what it takes to get it fixed..you don't move to go to another school - the easy way out..Once you accept something as the norm, it stays that way..maybe that is good enough for you,but not for me and others. We'd like it to be the best it can all the time at WDW...will it ever happen, doubtful, but can suggestions for improvement and complaint letters etc change things-- sometimes Want a great example : 2 words - NEW COKE >whatever but it isn't necessary to put people down that like the experience for the experience itself and not the expected but never achieved perfection that seems to be prevalent in the "non-apologist" viewpoint. < I believe the name calling and swearing came from the other camp - no ?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 << Instead when I say what I say I am told to move on, who needs you! That is the reason that I do not participate very often anymore.<, Wait a minute -- tell me how that is different from your long explanation as to why we need to move on to Universal or Sea World.. and how that is just fact ? The answer is there is absolutely no difference, so if you read the post clearly, you will see it said if you were to follow your own advice - that which you have given anyone who chooses to remark on the issues at WDW.. then that's what you would do, not telling you you had to. You can't have it both ways here You can't say telling people they need to move on to Universal if they don;t like it is 'fact', but that if you don;t like 2 sided discussion, people saying then maybe you need to leave isn't exacty the same thing? Not trying to be mean or have you leave, surely don't want that as I like 2 sided discussions- it's why I come here. Not to hear everything is beautiful if it is not...or that something is bad, and maybe it's not...you just can;t say it's Ok one way, but that it isn;t the other..same thing !
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <And then when the argument, excuse me discussion, becomes a stand off, we resort to talking about the "Cubs". It is just sad.< so your solution then is to never disagree with anyone on anything ? I think by definition this ceases to become a 'discussion board' which is the title of the board.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN I just returned from TDS this evening... all I can say is WOW! Now I return you to your underachieving WDW resort topic. And yes... TDR does make WDW look like a graffiti laden NYC barrio.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Why should we be surprised?? I bet Tokyo ALSO makes New York City look like a graffiti laden NYC barrio. 21st Century Americans are tacky slobs. What can you say??
Originally Posted By Skylardad My final destination this weekend was a Sunday night retreat to D-MGM to show my kids Fantasmic which they had not seen in years and did not remember all that well. The park looked like a ghost town. Now I know that the majority of the crowd was in line to see the first performance of Fantasmic; however, everything, and I mean everything (because we walked by all the attractions to enjoy the scenery and kill time) was either walk-on or a 10 minute wait - TOT and RRC included! The tram ride out (after the 2nd performance of Fantasmic was cancelled due to lightning in the area) only made 2 stops. Now I know D-MGM is not the appeal it was several years ago (as detailed on this and other related sites) but come on! this is the peak of the summer crowds! So, yes, this is additional proof that attendance is very soft and people are making the most out of the visit and cutting back where necessarry. Even the crowd that emptied from the first Fantasmic show was unimpressive. It really looked like a winter crowd there tonight. It was pretty sad, but maybe this is one of many wake-up calls to WDW to perk things up and get people interested again.
Originally Posted By BlazesOfFire I agree with RoadTrip. I dont think the crowds were low just because Disney needs to "perk things up."
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost vbdad...OK, you win. You are the superior intellect. I'm an idiot, what can I say. You managed to find a new meaning to everything I said. Do you work with the media by any chance? There is no way to have a discussion with this group because no one, either side will even try to understand the other. We are all absolutely right and everyone else is just plain wrong. Oh, BTW...complaining directly to Disney might help. Arguing on the boards is the same as peeing in the ocean, it doesn't really change much of anything. So let's not get all righteous about what we are doing here.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Or maybe it is just too freaking hot. < I don't know -- it has been 97 - 98 - 99 the last 3 days in Chicago -- calling for 100's today and tomorrow..I am thinking of going to Florida to escape the heat --LOL !
