Originally Posted By X-san I appreciate the metaphor behind it though. The desire to explain "WHY" bad stuff happens. The wish for god-fearing folk to understand WHY god might let these things happen, what the reasoning behind it is. It's just not enough when it comes to trying to explain away "everything". It always falls short.
Originally Posted By X-san ***because Adam was seeking knowledge*** Come on, Yates. Everyone knows it was the chicks' fault. ;p Adam was just doing what all dudes do...whatever the chick wanted.
Originally Posted By X-san That was just a tongue in cheek kidding kind of post, I hope all the ladies of LP realize that. <==ducks and covers.
Originally Posted By dshyates Guys are like that. You know? The Bilble sounds good though, but maybe they should change the name to "JC's World of Magic and Minions".
Originally Posted By dshyates Great, now your going after the Ducks. Man, you need sensitivity training. Wait 'til PETA hears about this.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad I believe that both of you guys misunderstand three things about my post. 1.) I'm not trivializing anything. If one of my kids die tomorrow, yes, it would "suck" and no I wouldn't be able to simply smile through the tears and say, "screw it, God's got a better plan." 2.) I'm not trying to convert you dshyates. I never even said that my beliefs are right and everyone else's <--sp? are wrong. 3.) My only argument is, "There is nothing wrong with DAR wanting to believe that God protected him...in fact that belief fits in with run of the mill Protestant teaching. One thing I have learned over time, (it pains me to admit it but mainly from SPP) that making fun of people and offering salvos of hyperbole really do nothing to help your argument. Of course I guess it really doesn't matter. Its for this reason that I tend to have a soft spot for the LDS in the United States, in spite of not believing at all the way they do. I believe they have to constantly defend their beliefs more than any other religious tradition. Take this discussion board for example. There is always some thread or another that seems to wrap someone's desires to discredit the LDS, in an approach to gain understanding of their beliefs. That's not a shot at your thread Xsan. That is actually a good one for the most part. I just am referring to LP historically speaking. I'm big on, "I may not believe what you believe, but you have equal right to believe it." So hurl insults if you like, its counterproductive.
Originally Posted By X-san ***I'm not trivializing anything. If one of my kids die tomorrow, yes, it would "suck" and no I wouldn't be able to simply smile through the tears and say, "screw it, God's got a better plan."*** Just for the record, I wasn't saying that *you* were trivializing ANYTHING, and I wouldn't doubt for a second that what you just wrote about is the absolute truth. I think that the religious dogma used to "explain" why things are the way things are, though, is lacking. I certainly didn't misunderstand your personal feelings though, at least I hope not! ***My only argument is, "There is nothing wrong with DAR wanting to believe that God protected him...in fact that belief fits in with run of the mill Protestant teaching.*** I don't think there's anything wrong with it either (I think I said as much), and in fact I think there could me much truth to it. I'm probably just difficult to talk to because I tend to disagree with the "this is how it is" line of thinking when it comes to religious edicts of any kind. As far as I'm concerned, NONE of us knows anything much beyond this mortal coil, and though we may speculate, that certainly is all it is...speculation. I realize that many want to point to the bible or some other book to give credence to their line of thinking, but my personal view is that those books are simply more speculation into what is unknown and unknowable in human existence. What we FEEL and BELIEVE matters, but trying to turn that into "fact" or "proof" seems ridiculous to me.
Originally Posted By dshyates I never said I didn't believe in your right to believe your beliefs. And to quote some old codger named Voltaire, "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." That is America to Me. At times I am rather insensitive. And have a certain contempt of religious indoctrination. I feel indoctrination (either political or religious) is the enemy of a free people. And I wholeheartedly agree with Jefferson that a well informed populous is the backbone of a working Democracy. And I have found that consumers of Pop Culture News and Talk Radio are the exact opposite of "well informed". And as far as the FLDS goes, I am all for freedom of religion, until it involves church mandated raping of little children. To them I have little compassion or tolerance.
Originally Posted By X-san They're not the only church sanctioning such things, dsh. Don't kid yourself.
Originally Posted By X-san I'm pretty sure NO religious organization has actually "mandated" such a thing, though (not even those "rogue" mormons).
Originally Posted By ecdc The problem with your approach, DVC Dad, is that you've started with numerous assumptions. That there is a God, first. That he's the Christian God, second. And third, that the Biblical account of his doings is at least partially accurate. But as I always go back to, you have no evidence for these assumptions. I have just as much evidence that Vishnu is a God or that Xenu is an evil galactic emperor. That is to say, I have no evidence for it. Each religion has their books, each religion has their own circular logic and "evidence" (stories and anecdotes that prop it up). They're all the same. I understand then that people say "Well it's a matter of faith and you by definition can't prove faith." Ok, fair enough. But that seems to me to imply a couple of things. First, your religion is based off of what you were born into or is more culturally palatable rather than some kind of evidentiary experience. Second, since it's "faith" it could be dead wrong. Third, since it's faith and could be dead wrong, proselytizing doesn't make a whole lot of sense. People ought to just keep their own faiths. And as it relates to this thread, people ought to be more mindful of those whom God has not "watched over" and that it can be insensitive to insist your prayers have been answered when someone else's were so clearly not.
Originally Posted By mele I think there's a power, a spirit, but I don't think it's "out there". I think it's in us all, in the Earth, in the Universe. It's right here. I haven't decided if I believe in angels or not, but I think being protected is more the work of angels or spirits or energy. Glad you guys were okay, DAR. I've seen some crazy driving on the freeway before that left me incredibly upset. It's amazing how frightening it can be.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <The problem with your approach, DVC Dad, is that you've started with numerous assumptions. That there is a God, first. That he's the Christian God, second. And third, that the Biblical account of his doings is at least partially accurate.> I don't think he did just assume those things, ecdc. I think he prefaced everything by saying "this is OUR teaching" and even followed with "I don't think I'm right and they are wrong."
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I also had an experience similar to DAR's. I was driving on the parkway, and a car coming the other way was driving crazy and flew up into the air and SLAMMED into the center divider. Because he was coming the other way, and there wasn't a lot of traffic at that time, I saw it all happening. And he slammed so hard into the divider at such an angle that his front bumper sheared off and passed directly over my hood, RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY WINDSHIELD, literally right in front of my eyes (and at eye level) at an almost perfect perpendicular angle to my car. I had my window open and it occurred to me that had I been just 5 feet further forward (in other words, had I been driving at 62.7598 MPH instead of 62.5493 MPH for the past quarter mile, or whatever), it would have gone directly into my temple. I had to pull over and process that for a minute or two. Thoughts of "did God spare me?" certainly passed through my mind. Part of me said "maybe," part of me thought things more akin to "why would he save me and allow 10s of thousands of others to die in traffic accidents that weren't their fault?" I never resolved it and am not sure it's resolvable.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad What good is being well informed if you are insensitive? Where did talk radio come in?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I don't think he did just assume those things, ecdc. I think he prefaced everything by saying "this is OUR teaching" and even followed with "I don't think I'm right and they are wrong."<< Yeah, I saw that, and I should've acknowledged it. I do appreciate that caveat, but I suppose from my non-believer perspective, I struggle to understand it. People often acknowledge these sorts of things as if it's a small detail; they'll spend two seconds saying "I know not everyone believes this and I don't think they're wrong," but then they'll proceed as if that's precisely what they think. It reminds me of the couple that goes to marriage counseling and the one says, "Well, I know I'm not perfect and I love my spouse BUT..." and then spends 20 minutes detailing their partner's every flaw. It seems more like lip service to try and deflect criticism they predict will be coming rather than a genuine acknowledgement of the huge problem that is the very existence of a god. I'm not saying that's what DVC Dad is doing here, but it seems to be a common problem. From my perspective, this idea that "I'm not saying I'm right and their wrong" is the ultimate question and not a small issue to simply acknowledge before moving forward. If you're not saying you're right, then why believe at all? If you're acknowledging that it's a matter of faith with no evidence, why detail Christian teachings and walk through Biblical claims - they might all be off-base? I don't think I'm explaining myself very well here. I guess I just think you've got to resolve the first questions (whether there is a God, which God he/she is, etc., etc.) before moving into the Garden of Eden, Lucifer, then Jesus and the cross, etc. And since those first questions are impossible to resolve, then, again from my perspective, the rest of it just becomes myth.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad ecdc, I am not saying I have the truth, only what some teach. Again, I also agree that the only reason I subscribe to these ideas is exactly that I was raised to believe them. That's why its called religious tradition by the academics, not merely religion. However I also took a long look at these teachings, in fact took a 3 year hiatus in order to explore other spiritual and philosophical teachings. In the end I weighed all things and decided to raise my children in the Protestant Christian church, and I'll even readily admit, I do so largely because I am most comfortable with what I grew up with. I see a value in raising children with a belief in some form of Providence. It answers a lot of questions and gives a simple base during the developmental years. When a child reaches adulthood they will at some point make their own decisions. I want my children to question things, to think for themselves. The church of which I am a member doesn't teach the things you mention about those folks in Texas. In fact our church has helped thousands of people in our community by working at our local homeless shelter, going on mission trips to build buildings, give medical treatment, help educate (non religious education) and many other ways of real hands on help for our fellow man. Its fine if you don't believe in God or some other god, that is your right. But discounting ALL religious church members simply because you believe differently is not logical.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad even before you say "is there or isn't there a god" you must first define god, sort if what is god. That's a chicken or the egg problem.
Originally Posted By mele I've thought about this a bit more and I think the higher power is when we truly begin to live and think as Jesus did, as all enlightened teachers do, as God would want us to. That is our higher power. The power to rise above the pain we feel, the pain we inflict upon others, our base emotions to cause harm and be negative, yadda, yadda, yadda. I do think this puts us on a higher plane of existence and spirituality.
