Originally Posted By fkurucz ^^^So what you're saying is that the poor just need to get a cushy government job with a pension like you did, and all will be fine.
Originally Posted By fkurucz ^^^ See the "Old Economy Steve" link above. The point you are missing, RT, is that minimum wage has NOT kept pace with inflation since when you were a young pup. Not even close. Also, menial jobs that are full time are almost extinct in this day and age. Remember that woman who told George W Bush that she had three jobs and how he responded (How uniquely American)? People didn't have to do that when you started out. I'll share a personal anecdote: My dad never finished high school. He did take a couple of drafting courses at a community college. That was enough for him to earn a wage big enough to get married, have kids and buy a house in Orange County, CA. The neighbors next door, the dad was a produce clerk at the local Vons. I can guarantee you that today neither of them would have close to the buying power they had with those skill sets. Not by a long shot.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "^^^So what you're saying is that the poor just need to get a cushy government job with a pension like you did, and all will be fine." Was this a serious comment?
Originally Posted By ecdc I don't see RT as saying anything like the poor just need to get a cushy job or if they learn how to budget properly every problem they have will go away. But yes, learning to manage money is one skill among many that is important and that could contribute to a reduction in poverty or at least in misery. It's not a panacea; it's not even the main problem, but it is a problem, and acknowledging that people who were born into poverty and grow up in poverty don't always make the best decisions with their money isn't an outlandish thing to say. LBJ's war on poverty failed to eliminate poverty just for this kind of reason. It essentially gave money to the poor without examining any underlying causes of poverty or looking into longterm solutions. It did include jobs training and other measures, but it failed to truly understand poverty. Conservatives may not like it when we link past and present racism to poverty, and liberals may not like it when we point out that the poor sometimes don't know how to act responsibly, but both things are true.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Just for info... my first job was cleaning toilets at a Pizza Hut." I always HAVE been suspicious of their meat toppings.
Originally Posted By CuriousConstance I don't understand why they don't teach more money managing skills in school. Sure there is time and money to consider, but it would certainly be better than some things that they teach.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder At one point in time they did teach stuff like that. I now they did when I went to junior high and high school back in the 70's. Nowadays, even using a check register is foreign to a lot of people, as society has shifted to online banking, direct deposits and online bill paying. Poorer people likely aren't as involved in that, and for what it's worth, the low income people I deal with on a daily basis probably wouldn't even know how to apply for a credit card.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Sure there is time and money to consider, but it would certainly be better than some things that they teach.<< Agreed. I'm a well-educated guy who prides himself on being at least semi-intelligent [insert jokes here]. But until recently, my wife and I never used a budget (long story, mostly involving her being self-employed and having a roller coaster of an income). Now that we use one, it takes serious time, effort, and dedication to adjust and make it work. After a year, I'm used to it and go more on auto-pilot. But it's not as easy or obvious a skill to learn as people who are really used to it might think. I think that's a huge part of the problem in the way people talk about poverty. I see a lot of people roll their eyes and insist that things like grocery shopping, budgeting, understanding healthy eating, applying for a job, etc., are "obvious," and easy things to do. They accuse the poor of laziness or stupidity, when in reality, these are learned skills. It might seem obvious and easy if you grew up with it, but it's really not. It takes education and effort.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Was this a serious comment?<< Yes, because he keeps using himself as an example of how easy it is to bootstrap one's way out of poverty. I did it too, but I had a lot of help along the way: full ride scholarships, a much easier job market when I started, etc. And it didn't hurt to be smart. Had I been born with an IQ of 95 my story would be very different. He doesn't take into account that: 1) It was a lot easier to get ahead when he entered the workforce. So his first job was cleaning toilets. Good thing he isn't starting out today, because he'd have to compete with illegal immigrants for that kind of job. 2) He's probably smarter than the average bear. So are people really worse at managing their money than they were 40 years ago? Or are they poor because there are simply no opportunities? Because we are in an economy where retail stores can expect college grads to stock shelves and run cash registers. Because this is what it's coming to be, jobs that were once considered menial now require a bachelor's degree. The truth is that the bar keeps getting raised higher and higher. To simply say that the poor are poor because of their poor money management skills is disingenuous. Barbara Ehrenreich wrote a great book on the plight of the working poor titled "Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America". She actually went undercover and worked menial jobs to see what it was like to be one of the working poor. Her superior money management skills did not help her escape poverty, because after she paid the rent and other mandatory expenses, she had no money left. From her own website, a NYT review of her book: "Millions of Americans work for poverty-level wages, and one day Barbara Ehrenreich decided to join them. She was inspired in part by the rhetoric surrounding welfare reform, which promised that any job equals a better life. But how can anyone survive, let alone prosper, on $6 to $7 an hour? To find out, Ehrenreich moved from Florida to Maine to Minnesota, taking the cheapest lodgings available and accepting work as a waitress, hotel maid, house cleaner, nursing-home aide, and Wal-Mart salesperson. She soon discovered that even the "lowliest" occupations require exhausting mental and physical efforts. And one job is not enough; you need at least two if you intend to live indoors. Nickel and Dimed reveals low-wage America in all its tenacity, anxiety, and surprising generosity -- a land of Big Boxes, fast food, and a thousand desperate strategies for survival. Instantly acclaimed for its insight, humor, and passion, this book is changing the way America perceives its working poor."
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Now that we use one, it takes serious time, effort, and dedication to adjust and make it work.<< Agreed, I use an Excel spreadsheet to do that. And it takes some foresight. Like setting money aside for new tires that you won't need for a few years. Or for home appliance maintenance or replacement. Or all those myriad other things that don't happen on a schedule. Most people just slap those on a credit card and then try to pay it down later (good luck with that).
Originally Posted By mawnck >>To simply say that the poor are poor because of their poor money management skills is disingenuous.<< Why do you keep saying this? Nobody is saying this. Stop strawmanning!
Originally Posted By Tikiduck One thing about the poor is a lack of skills, hope and confidence being perpetuated within the family itself. Children grow up seeing how their parents have to live and accept this as the way things are. Parents often take on a nature of resignation to their lot in life, and in that hopelessness, fail to educate and inspire. This is part of the cycle of poverty. Couple that with the bleak economic situation of today, with wages stagnant, while the cost of living rises. All while the rich elite are reaping unprecedented financial gains. Sure, some will squeeze through the cracks and prosper, but for the vast majority of the working poor, when you're down that's where you'll stay.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip For those here who apparently CAN'T READ... the first sentence from my first post: <<<<"If you're poor, stop being poor">> That is an INCREDIBLY stupid statement, but there is an element of truth in it.>> I never said inappropriate spending was the cause of poverty. I never even said it was a major element, just that in many cases it was a factor, which it is.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Yes, because he keeps using himself as an example of how easy it is to bootstrap one's way out of poverty.>> No I don't. I've pointed out that today I would be unable to even apply for the position I held at the University... it would currently require a Master's degree... I don't even have a bachelor's. Is it still possible to raise yourself out of poverty? Yes it is, there are endless examples of people doing just that. Ironically they are more often immigrants to this country than people born here. Is it much more difficult today to do what I did... work your way up in a large organization with great benefits and spend your entire career there? Absolutely. Today that route is just about impossible. So stop gnawing on that, OK fkurucz?? You are attributing things to me that I never said.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder The stereotype about "cushy government job" is another one that pisses me off. But I get so tired of that kind of ignorance I just don't feel like getting into it chapter and verse anyone. I'll say one thing, among many I could- when you have the type of job where the State Supreme Court has unanimously decided your right to privacy is outweighed by the public's right to know your full name, position title, exact salary and work location- get back to me.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I'll say one thing, among many I could- when you have the type of job where the State Supreme Court has unanimously decided your right to privacy is outweighed by the public's right to know your full name, position title, exact salary and work location- get back to me.>> Yes, all that was considered "Public Information" at the Univ of Minn too.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I've covered this before- my wife also is a government employee. Once our information was published in the local newspapers, we had profane anonymous letters sent to us, people knocking on our door, minor vandalism, all because people decided we were "leeching off the taxpayer". Never mind military, police and fire are government workers too. And about those cushy pensions- Between my wife and I, we put away about $2400 of our own money every month towards those pensions, hardly a free ride.
