Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<The time has come to stop emoting and start strategizing.>> Yeah. The election results came in on Wednesday morning. And late Thursday, gays were STILL upset at having been legally relegated to second-class status. Jeez. What a group of hotheads those queers are. <<They are being broadcast to the world, and the world will decide whether they are worthy of support by what they see.>> I agree with you overall. I tend to be very pragmatic and sensible when it comes to strategizing ways to effect change. In fact, I've come to realize that I'm sometimes TOO level-headed and too afraid of emotional displays. The issue needs to be attacked on several fronts. I'm convinced that the primary front needs to be a calm and reasoned one. But I've learned that we don't need to be embarrassed by displays of emotion or emphatic resistance. In fact, I think, we NEED those, too. As someone has previously posted, history shows that social change has never happened for a group that waited politely for it. And while I know that a segment of the population will be turned off at seeing the rawness of recent gays's protests -- [OMG, I can't believe I'm about to express gratitude toward the current trash media culture] -- I think that in 2008 there is a sizeable contingent of viewers who determine newsworthy-ness based upon emotional response. The fact that gays "got up in someone's grill" will legitimize the issue for them and make it worth following. I'm not proud of any gay person who hurled the "n" word. And I don't defend them. But I completely understand the emotion that lead to it. And while I cringe at the hurt and damage it may cause, I also realize that witnessing it may help others understand how serious an issue this is.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka It's kind of hard to out-stragegize religious extremists who think they're carrying out the will of God and are disgusted by the very idea of your existence. And when a religious extremist thinks their God doesn't believe in the Golden Rule? Tall order.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster I think the protests have been valuable in showing there is passion on this side of the issue. Up until now, for most people, gay marriage has been viewed as hypothetical. Seeing real people get really upset about this might persuade some people. But in the long term we have to be smart about this. As long as churches are free to interfere in political issues, as long as churches are able to impose their views on others, freedom will suffer. It's time to make sure that any church that involves itself in politics loses its tax-exempt status. The Mormon church is being targeted right now for that very thing. I think it will keep them from interfering in politics in the future.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka Yes, I agree that we should hit them, legally, where it hurts. And as often as possible. It's now my belief that they are extremely dangerous and I can't have my beliefs disrupted.
Originally Posted By jdub >>What's troubling is now we're hearing reports of white gays at some protests in LA this week lashing out at blacks using the N word because of the popularity of Prop 8 with black voters. << This is awful, just as bad as the Yes on 8 demonstrators using the word fag/faggots. A great disappointment.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains From what the news here reported - it was much more mellow tonight in SF.
Originally Posted By jdub >>I'm not proud of any gay person who hurled the "n" word. And I don't defend them. But I completely understand the emotion that lead to it.<< I do not. Our community encompasses all colors and socioeconomic levels. I heard a black lesbian on the radio this morning sharing how this race-baiting had her feeling on the outside of her own cause.
Originally Posted By Daannzzz No one is a second class citizen! From Cnn.com ""The coalition of religious communities and citizens who supported Proposition 8 wanted to preserve "the bedrock institution of marriage" between a man and a woman, said Cardinal Roger Mahoney, the Catholic archbishop of Los Angeles. "Proposition 8 is not against any group in our society," Mahoney said in a written statement."
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Proposition 8 is not against any group in our society," Mahoney said in a written statement." The more I read this, the more it cracks me up. If this statement is true, then why bother with it in the first place?
Originally Posted By barboy 2 LDSers just came to my door with literature(and there were 2 more just on the sidewalk)---- very polite people who remind me of Ned Flanders.
Originally Posted By dlkozy ^^^hmm-that's different-LDSers very seldom go in groups-that's more like what JWs do.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>LDSers very seldom go in groups-that's more like what JWs do.<< Maybe two Mormons isn't quite enough to insure adequate safety anymore. Way to go, Mormons.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "It's kind of hard to out-stragegize religious extremists who think they're carrying out the will of God and are disgusted by the very idea of your existence. And when a religious extremist thinks their God doesn't believe in the Golden Rule? Tall order." Now ain't that the doggone truth! Wow, just read some of the stuff around here from Elderp and Josh and you feel like you're being run over by the same train over and over again.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt >>I'm not proud of any gay person who hurled the "n" word. And I don't defend them. But I completely understand the emotion that lead to it.<< "I do not. Our community encompasses all colors and socioeconomic levels. I heard a black lesbian on the radio this morning sharing how this race-baiting had her feeling on the outside of her own cause." Yeah, I mean it's not like blacks aren't part of the gay community too. In my mind that kind of anger is misdirected, especially since blacks did not organize to pass the measure.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<>>I'm not proud of any gay person who hurled the "n" word. And I don't defend them. But I completely understand the emotion that lead to it.<< "I do not. Our community encompasses all colors and socioeconomic levels. I heard a black lesbian on the radio this morning sharing how this race-baiting had her feeling on the outside of her own cause." Yeah, I mean it's not like blacks aren't part of the gay community too. In my mind that kind of anger is misdirected, especially since blacks did not organize to pass the measure.>> *sigh* I'll say it again -- and more slowly, so that it might not be misunderstood a second time. I do NOT condone any gay person's use of the n-bomb in response to the passage of Prop 8 -- or for any other reason. A) I could NEVER condone the use of the n-word in a derisive context. B) I think that confrontative politics are counterproductive in this case. But -- and here's where it gets tricky, kids -- I UNDERSTAND that some people were so hurt and angry by the passage of Prop 8 that they did a bad thing. *I* would not have done that thing. YOU wouldn't have. But some people have weaker mental or emotional resources than you and I do. <<In my mind that kind of anger is misdirected, especially since blacks did not organize to pass the measure.>> So preaching "'Yes' on 8" from the pulpit of black churches doesn't count as an organized effort? <<I heard a black lesbian on the radio this morning sharing how this race-baiting had her feeling on the outside of her own cause.>> I hope she can see the bright side: she's in a unique position to create change within the black community. Blacks in the US are more homophobic than whites. It's a sociological fact that is absolutely tragic for a huge number of gay black people. And it's tragic for ALL gays in situations like California's Prop 8, where every vote counted.
Originally Posted By Rsey103 BriGuy85, "Contemplate yourself as surrounded by the conditions that you would like to produce." --Wayne Dyer
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt <<In my mind that kind of anger is misdirected, especially since blacks did not organize to pass the measure.>> "So preaching "'Yes' on 8" from the pulpit of black churches doesn't count as an organized effort?" From what I can tell the majority of churches in California asked their members to pray over the matter and vote yes. Why single out black people for your anger? Look, I'm not going to sit here and say that blacks should be defended for their homophobia, but to direct anger at them in the manner that was done this week suggests to me that a) the N-word dropper was provoked, or b) the N-word dropper was already carrying some deep rooted dislike of black people. In either case, this is hardly the time to be calling people names.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<Why single out black people for your anger?>> I'm absolutely NOT singling out black people for my anger. I'm also "singling out" the LDS church, the Catholic church, and all the [mostly white] fundamentalist churches who supported Proposition 8. Simply put, black churches don't deserve a pass just because they're black. <<In either case, this is hardly the time to be calling people names.>> Okay, okay. Let me try for a THIRD time... I DO *N*O*T* THINK IT'S OKAY TO USE THE N-WORD. I DO *N*O*T* THINK IT'S OKAY TO CALL PEOPLE NAMES. Let me know if I need to use smaller words.
