Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <But what evidence would you accept? We know you'll look at the evidence, but what type of evidence in particular are you looking for that would demonstrate to you that same sex marriages are beneficial to society?> A study that shows that most homosexuals that receive the benefit of marriage would do so in order to raise children would be a good first step.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "The burden of proof is on those who want to change society, not those who are in favor of leaving things as they are." Didn't work for slavery, didn't work in Brown, didn't work in Loving. Try again.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <How about you showing why gays should be treated differently than others?> I don't believe they should be. The marriage laws apply equally to all individuals.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "A study that shows that most homosexuals that receive the benefit of marriage would do so in order to raise children would be a good first step." That NOT a legal standard. That YOUR standard. You're changing the rules to avoid answering questions.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 What "evidence" could those opposing segregation in the 50's have "shown" to show that ending segregation would be a good idea? They couldn't, really. You couldn't "show" that. I think Douglas is calling for something that by definition can't be shown. Yet, of course, ending segregation WAS beneficial to America, despite the millions of people who truly believed that changing the way things always had been was going to bring on the ruination of society.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "I don't believe they should be. The marriage laws apply equally to all individuals." Nice try. Complete the sentence and say gays should be allowed to marry another adult of their choosing.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Didn't work for slavery, didn't work in Brown, didn't work in Loving.> Not the same thing.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "I think Douglas is calling for something that by definition can't be shown." Bingo. As I said, he's re-framing this to where you couldn't possibly answer.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <That NOT a legal standard.> This not strictly a legal issue. It political and moral as well.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "Not the same thing." Sure it is. Yo said so yourslef with your status quo attempt. Plus, we're talking about basic human rights.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <What "evidence" could those opposing segregation in the 50's have "shown" to show that ending segregation would be a good idea?> I bet they could've done a study that showed that blacks in desegregated schools scored higher than those in segregated schools.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "I bet they could've done a study that showed that blacks in desegregated schools scored higher than those in segregated schools." They could have but it wouldn't have been necessary.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer <a href="http://www.ucsfhealth.org/childrens/health_library/reuters/2005/09/20050914elin016.html" target="_blank">http://www.ucsfhealth.org/chil drens/health_library/reuters/2005/09/20050914elin016.html</a> (excerpted below) WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Stable marriage can increase the financial prosperity of couples and improves the lives of American children, including those being raised by same-sex couples, according to a report released on Tuesday. The report by the Brookings Institution and Princeton University showed that while the poor see lack of money as a barrier to marriage, even when they have children out of wedlock, healthy marriage actually ensures them healthier finances in the long run. Children already being raised by same-sex couples can also benefit when those couples marry, the study suggested. "First, marriage may increase children's material well-being through such benefits as family leave from work and spousal health insurance eligibility," the report said. "Second, same-sex marriage may benefit children by increasing the durability and stability of their parents' relationship."
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder So pony up Doug. Why should gays be denied the right to marry an adult of their choosing? Cite to some legal authority that backs up your view. The Supreme Court isn't interested in any hackneyed view of childless marriages.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer <a href="http://www.webmd.com/content/article/113/110762.htm" target="_blank">http://www.webmd.com/content/a rticle/113/110762.htm</a> Oct.12, 2005 (Washington) -- Children growing up in same-sex parental households do not necessarily have differences in self-esteem, gender identity, or emotional problems from children growing up in heterosexual parent homes. "There are a lot of children with at least one gay or lesbian parent," says Ellen C. Perrin, MD, professor of pediatrics at Tufts University School of Medicine in Boston. She revealed the findings at the American Academy of Pediatrics Conference and Exhibition. Between 1 million and 6 million children in the U.S. are being reared by committed lesbian or gay couples, she says. Children being raised by same-sex parents were either born to a heterosexual couple, adopted, or conceived through artificial insemination. "The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures." Researchers looked at information gleaned from 15 studies on more than 500 children, evaluating possible stigma, teasing and social isolation, adjustment and self-esteem, opposite gender role models, sexual orientation, and strengths. Studies from 1981 to 1994, including 260 children reared by either heterosexual mothers or same-sex mothers after divorce, found no differences in intelligence, type or prevalence of psychiatric disorders, self-esteem, well-being, peer relationships, couple relationships, or parental stress. "Some studies showed that single heterosexual parents' children have more difficulties than children who have parents of the same sex," Perrin says. "They did better in discipline, self-esteem, and had less psychosocial difficulties at home and at school." Another study of 37 children of 27 divorced lesbian mothers and a similar number of children of heterosexual mothers found no differences in behavior, adjustment, gender identity, and peer relationships.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer <a href="http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html" target="_blank">http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.h tml</a> Fitness of Lesbians and Gay Men as Parents Beliefs that gay and lesbian adults are not fit parents likewise have no empirical foundation (Cramer, 1986; Falk, 1989; Gibbs, 1988; Patterson, 1996). Lesbian and heterosexual women have not been found to differ markedly either in their overall mental health or in their approaches to child rearing (Kweskin & Cook, 1982; Lyons, 1983; Miller, Jacobsen, & Bigner, 1981; Mucklow & Phelan, 1979; Pagelow, 1980; Rand, Graham, & Rawlings, 1982; Thompson, McCandless, & Strickland, 1971), nor have lesbians' romantic and sexual relationships with other women been found to detract from their ability to care for their children (Pagelow, 1980). Recent evidence suggests that lesbian couples who are parenting together tend to divide household and family labor relatively evenly (Hand, 1991; Patterson, 1995a) and to report satisfaction with their couple relationships (Koepke, Hare, & Moran, 1992; Patterson, 1995a). Research on gay fathers has similarly found no reason to believe them unfit as parents (Barret & Robinson, 1990; Bigner and Bozett, 1990; Bozett, 1980, 1989) D. Conclusion In summary, there is no evidence to suggest that lesbians and gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of gay men or lesbians is compromised in any respect relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents. Not a single study has found children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments provided by gay and lesbian parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children's psychosocial growth.
