Originally Posted By danyoung >Sure, it's not the "total" package of what Walt wanted, but it certainly embodies the same spirit. International fellowship, prototype testing, forward thinking ingenuity.< I don't deny that those aspects are there in Epcot the park. But the basis of the entire concept - a real working modern city vs. a theme park - completely changed after Walt's death. >danyoung, go to the town of Celebration.< I never for a second thought that Celebration was even in the same league with Walt's plans for Epcot. Just because you have a modest downtown district and some high priced and overly controlled apartments and houses doesn't mean you've created an experimental prototype city of tomorrow.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Only reason I would go to Celebration is to eat at the Columbia Restaurant there. Wouldn't want to live there for anything.<<< That place is fantastic. Really should go back.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>I don't deny that those aspects are there in Epcot the park. But the basis of the entire concept - a real working modern city vs. a theme park - completely changed after Walt's death.<<< Oh, of course. I think it had to. But in no means does that dilute the driving idea of it. It may temper the scope and the execution, but the spirit is the same. (Oh gosh, there's some bait for a joke in there, now...)
Originally Posted By leobloom >> That place is fantastic. Really should go back. << I know the original restaurant is in Tampa, but I think they may have locations other places in the state. They have some killer sangria. And a great salad that's called the 1905. Good dining, and it's sorta still "on property" so it retains its feeling of Disney magic. Kidding!
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Sure, it's not the "total" package of what Walt wanted, but it certainly embodies the same spirit. International fellowship, prototype testing, forward thinking ingenuity. Walt Disney World DID become EPCOT, even if that's hyperbolic. << That's my opinion also. I think they were wise enough to realize they could not pull off EPCOT exactly how Walt envisioned it. Still they kept as close to the vision as possible while establishing a theme park.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> We went there, ironically, to get AWAY from Disney. LOL. << Why would anybody want to get away from Disney? Other than the fact you were running out of money.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> Why would anybody want to get away from Disney? Other than the fact you were running out of money. << That's not a serious question, is it?
Originally Posted By danyoung >I think they were wise enough to realize they could not pull off EPCOT exactly how Walt envisioned it. Still they kept as close to the vision as possible while establishing a theme park.< Sorry, but I just don't quite agree with this. First, I've always felt that Walt was probably the only one who could have pushed the EPCOT city concept through, as it had nothing to do with making money like a theme park would. Of course Roy was able to push through the first phase of the master plan by getting the MK built. But then he died, and the company reverted to finding a concept that would give them the biggest financial bang for the buck. And even then they couldn't decide on which of 2 totally different parks to build, until they (Marty Sklar and John Hench?) had the bright idea of combining the two parks into one. Yeah, EPCOT Center the park had and has a great vibe of creativity and industry and all that stuff. But I don't think it was a matter of wisdom - it was a matter of what would make the company the most money. Walt always believed in doing whatever he was the most interested in, and hoped that the money would follow. He was remarkably successful in this. Would EPCOT the city have been successful? We'll never know.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Sorry, but I just don't quite agree with this. First, I've always felt that Walt was probably the only one who could have pushed the EPCOT city concept through, as it had nothing to do with making money like a theme park would. Of course Roy was able to push through the first phase of the master plan by getting the MK built. But then he died, and the company reverted to finding a concept that would give them the biggest financial bang for the buck. And even then they couldn't decide on which of 2 totally different parks to build, until they (Marty Sklar and John Hench?) had the bright idea of combining the two parks into one. Yeah, EPCOT Center the park had and has a great vibe of creativity and industry and all that stuff. But I don't think it was a matter of wisdom - it was a matter of what would make the company the most money. Walt always believed in doing whatever he was the most interested in, and hoped that the money would follow. He was remarkably successful in this. Would EPCOT the city have been successful? We'll never know. << I'm also of the opinion that TWDC would have gone bankrupt had they tried to build EPCOT like Walt originally envisioned it.
Originally Posted By Manfried "I'm also of the opinion that TWDC would have gone bankrupt had they tried to build EPCOT like Walt originally envisioned it." I agree, but they almost went bankrupt with the version of EPCOT that they did build.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>Walt always believed in doing whatever he was the most interested in, and hoped that the money would follow. He was remarkably successful in this. Would EPCOT the city have been successful? We'll never know. << I'm also of the opinion that TWDC would have gone bankrupt had they tried to build EPCOT like Walt originally envisioned it.<<< I'm afraid that I have to agree with that. Not every idea Walt had was a winner. If they had been he wouldn't have gone bankrupt as many times as he did. In my mind, EPCOT was more than a city, it was an ideology. It went against the grain of American thinking and was more like a dictatorship then a functioning community. With all due respect...this was completely and totally Walt's idea of what would be ideal. I really don't think having that much control over the population would have worked out for very long. To prove that...what happened to Celebration? That place wasn't nearly as stringently ruled as EPCOT would have to have been to maintain that ideology.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer I think a tempered EPCOT would have worked. Less "City of the Future", more "WDW as living space"... which is what we got in the end.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I'm also of the opinion that TWDC would have gone bankrupt had they tried to build EPCOT like Walt originally envisioned it.>> I've heard this before ... and we'll never know whether it's true ... but Walt was also told he'd go broke for every visionary thing he ever did from Snow White to Fantasia to True Life Adventures to DL etc ... looking back, it seemed like the visionary won out over the conventional 'wisdom' every time.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>I've heard this before ... and we'll never know whether it's true ... but Walt was also told he'd go broke for every visionary thing he ever did from Snow White to Fantasia to True Life Adventures to DL etc ... looking back, it seemed like the visionary won out over the conventional 'wisdom' every time.<<< Of the ones you mentioned, Fantasia was a massive commercial flop. It lost money in droves. And there were others. Granted he had a pretty good intuition when it came to choosing projects but every once in awhile, he went with a project that were just pet projects and they didn't always work. Fortunately, for him and the company most of them did.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Well, yes and no. We got a national park extension from it, Country Bear Jamboree, and probably the start of DVC.
