Originally Posted By Mr X I always wondered, what's the "vn" stand for Jon? (I'm assuming initials, which I wouldn't mention except that I've seen your last name in print on other fansites so I figured it wasn't too much of a privacy violation to inquire) If so, can I start a topic to try and guess your middle name? As for my take on the issue, I do believe that the numbers were less than they hoped for, and I think so because I've heard such from executives in the company who would have no reason to lie. I also surmise that this grand expansion is an attempt to improve the park to improve the numbers (yes, all parks expand, but this is a BIG project which makes me think they are serious about it). And that makes me happy. I hope that in the future, assuming we ever do get more parks, they'll think twice before going with the "on the cheap" model in the future. Disney is better than that, as they proved with such incredible offerings (right off the bat) like Disneyland, Epcot, and DisneySea. And yes, Disneyland was amazing "right off the bat" considering the era and the fact that it was an entirely new approach to amusement parks...and what they had to scrimp on (like Tomorrowland) they improved dramatically as soon as they were able to. A very "spare no expense" mentality that I have always associated with Disney. That's the reason I've been so disappointed with cheap efforts like HKDL, the Paris Studios, and yes DCA. I do feel they thought they could get away with it because MGM was cheap, but also successful. Florida is a very different situation though, and it still wasn't COOL that MGM was cheap, but it did (unfortunately) work out for them because it expanded the scope of the resort so much. It's no surprise to me that Disney can come up with amazing stuff when they want to. At the time, both Epcot and DisneySea were the most expensive theme parks ever built. And it shows. The opposite also shows, and I'm glad people voted with their wallets to stay away...I hope it taught the executives a good lesson, because like I said I'm a fan and I expect a lot from the company (not to mention PAY a lot for the privilege of visiting the resorts...I expect "spare no expense" for that kind of cash!).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>...I expect "spare no expense" for that kind of cash!<<< EXACTLY!!! This is why I am so frustrated by Disney. I never minded paying out if the quality is 2nd to none. But the last 5 years (almost 10 if you exclude DAK and TDS) has shown that Disney has cut so far that lifelong obsessives like me are seriously considering backing away from Disney. They may be spending the money, and I am looking forward to the new entrance of DCA, but I really do have an issue with the creative decisions being made. DCA does need work, no doubt, but the piling of toons (and let's face it, with the exception of the entry and a beer garden, ALL the additions are toon based - TSM; Little Mermaid; Carsland, the hypocrite in me is looking forward to this one, WWC; Mickey on the sun wheel; goofy overlay of Mulholland Madness; there was even the rumour before of the overrated Philharmagic coming) is not the answer. The capital investments could have easily seen Circle of Hands resurrected; the Cars entry could be woodies and muscle cars; MM could have been enclosed with a new theme or plussing of the existing one; a dark ride demonstrating early California (maybe even Zorro if they wanted a tie in), the Barbary Coast, the Gold Rush all could have come in. I do not think California is a bad theme at all, in fact I think it's a fantastic theme. The current move does not fill me with hope. In fact quite the contrary. It demonstrates that it is not a lack of investment, but creativity and innovation that is lacking. And for me, this is really a sad state of affairs. Unless it is in Tokyo, it seems all Disney can do these days is toons or thrills. Sorry guys, I'll see you in Dubai. At least there is somewhere in the world where real innovation is taking place. Disney was on a fantastic ascendancy in the 80's to about 2000. Now, just like much in the world, it is in decline. Maybe the lack of exposure to the California property, colored by my experiences in WDW and DLP recently is tainting my perceptions. It will be interesting to see how I feel in a month's time once we are back from DL/DCA and ponder the experience. I hope I do not feel as bitter as I do now, for it could mark my last trip to a non OLC Disney park.
Originally Posted By dshyates I'm just glad that the "respond to local compitition" model is history. I was terribly afraid the 3rd gate would be a marine park made entirely of Duplo blocks.
Originally Posted By dshyates "(maybe even Zorro if they wanted a tie in)" I suggested many years ago a Zorro stunt show for HPB but everyone pointed to the Antonio Banderas Zorro and said license agreement.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Well I would prefer not to have a tie in, but Zorro would be more acceptable to me.
Originally Posted By Mr X **I was terribly afraid the 3rd gate would be a marine park made entirely of Duplo blocks.** lol. Methinks that idea is not dead and gone though (not the duplo blocks, the "respond to competition" part). Someone mentioned a possible 5th park in Orlando being a more expensive "exclusive" experience along the lines of the new SeaWorld park. I don't think that's out of the question, and I think it might even make sense considering the current "milk every buck" mentality in Orlando. I sort of hope not, but I wonder...
Originally Posted By Mr X **This is why I am so frustrated by Disney.** I totally understand how you feel, Dave...I think I've gotten around that somewhat (and enjoyed my recent Orlando trip as a result) but adopting a very "take it as it is" mentality. A good example would be Epcot. I wish things were going in the direction they used to be, and Jon has pointed out how inappropriate such things as Mission:Space and the Nemo pavillion are (and I AGREE), but I enjoyed myself there by just taking the attractions "for what they're worth", and also appreciating that my little girl really liked Nemo (her favorite thing at DisneyWorld actually). I know that's not ideal, but it's either that or, well, just giving up on enjoying Disney and find some other thing that makes you happy. For me, I still like going to DisneyWorld. It's a fun place. Same with California. Hong Kong can rot though, for all I care. They really dropped the ball.
Originally Posted By Mr X The real, huge bummer with Hong Kong for me is that if they'd really gone for it and made an amazing, innovative magic kingdom like Paris...I don't think I'd have any other vacation destination in mind EVER since Hong Kong itself is just an INCREDIBLE place to go. Not to mention nearby, and relatively cheap. But HKDL is SUCH a DISAPPOINTMENT. Talk about cheap! And that's the first time out of five that I feel that way about a MAGIC KINGDOM park (never been to Paris, but I've heard good things).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo The thing that troubles me is that Disney used to actually inspire me and create one little spark that I could take away with me. Not it is becoming more and more of "just a theme park". You could argue that maybe I am growing up, but I doubt it. The old school material and DAK do still inspire me. Even Soarin' does. But the current trends of Disney does not inspire or wow me. Cartoon characters do not encourage me to spend $8000 to visit, not even $1000. Thrills - well I can get those here. Priceless family experiences - well we enjoy going to the park down the road to feed the ducks for free. It is utopian and romantic views of reality and adventure, inspirational attractions that remind me what is great about humanity, world class approaches to entertainment, a mixed menu of offerings, those are the elements that endured us to Disney, and made it enjoyable to 5 yos, 15yos, and 50+ yos at all the same time. Cheap tacky attractions and merchandise is commoditising and leads to lower profits. Fiscally and funnily, the trend of Disney has been bone headed and short sited in the last 10 - 15 years. So while America's economy slides further into the crapper, and people question about share value, if Disney stuck to it's founding principles instead of the me too factor, it would lead to a far healthier company. Instead they are setting themselves up to be a part of the boom bust economy. All those crowds coming in may start to view DL as a Chuckie Cheese type place for the stroller brigade. This my be hyperboil from me, but it has me gravely worried. To me Disney was THE GREATEST company in the world. Now, it's just a company. And just about a good one. That is litterly depressing me.
Originally Posted By Mr X **So while America's economy slides further into the crapper, and people question about share value, if Disney stuck to it's founding principles instead of the me too factor, it would lead to a far healthier company. Instead they are setting themselves up to be a part of the boom bust economy.** Please note, I've been largely on the SHORT side of the market this year...more and more as the months wear on...and not so much against the lenders and homebuilders anymore (I'm currently short Apple, Research in Motion (blackberry buys), Amazon.com, Baidu (chinese momentum stock), and, sadly...Disney...a short position I took right after their earnings).
Originally Posted By jonvn VN Stands for VanNadelberg. It is either run together, or I use Van as a middle name. It depends on how I feel that day. It's pretty long. I have my own news groupt, alt.fan.jon-nadelberg. It gets no traffic, as I have no fans. I'm greek on my mother's side. I look like a Ukranian Jew, except I'm very tall and rather broad shouldered. I've rather dark skin, and haven't had a haircut in about a year now. The reason why is because what hair I have left is pretty much a curly mop and it pretty is tight against my head. I'm actually a very nice person, funny and helpful. I'm kind to people, but am very impatient sometimes when people just say things I think are dumb. I have a raging ego, and I think I know better than you, unless you convince me otherwise. It seems most people online dislike me a lot. I like a lot of people online, nearly everyone, but it is not generally reciprocated due to my nature, I suppose. This is not the greatest thing in the world to me, because in real life, people seem to enjoy being around me. I try to be a nice person and do the right thing for myself and others. I don't like it when people are mean, and I try not to be, but I sometimes fail at it. I wish people would not hate me so much online, and that they liked me more. But I speak very forthrightly and strongly and it gets me into constant trouble. Be that as it may, I've been very badly hurt online by a lot of things, and at this point, just am afraid to even try to be nice to people, I think. It really is a bad defense mechanism at this point. I write for a living, and can type extremely fast. Almost as fast as I can speak. I don't sleep much, another thing that has always bothered me, but at this late stage in life, I guess that's how it goes. But growing up in LA and living there for a few decades I was always thankful that Tommy's was open 24 hours, so I could get a chili burger at 3am. I don't smoke, I don't do drugs, I like to drink a bit. I have always liked disney, my whole life, and it is one of my passions. I have read a ton about it from various sources, and watched the Disney company CLOSELY for many years, going back before most people online now were born. I don't like sports. I barely watch TV at all, because it's so generally terrible and violent. Movies tend to bore me because it is almost always the same exact story over and over again. I don't like violence. If I do watch TV, it's probably a documentry. If I see a movie, it's probably a kids film. I majored in CompSci in college, but also took many courses in anthropology and religious studies. Religion is another thing I find absolutely fascinating in a weird sort of ways. I think if I were to do it over again, I would have liked to have been a lawyer. Medicine is interesting, too, but I'm glad I didn't do that. My sister is a teacher at a university that teaches nursing. The horror stories she tells (and she is my sister so she enjoys the effect) are rather gruesome and I'm glad I didn't go into that at all. I'm nearly deaf. Loud music and genetics did me in. This has caused me to be rather shy and uncomfortable in meeting people. I can't hear what you're saying to me, so mostly I nod and smile. That gets me through 99% of all conversations, but sometimes it doesn't, and I get anxiety over that. So I avoid talking to people, and meeting people. This is one reason why almost no one has ever met me. Gosh. Well, that's quite a bit about me. I know you only asked my name, but I'm in a bit of a reflective mood right now and feeling a bit wistful about some things. It would have been nice to have been able to make more friends online, but I think that's not something that will ever be possible. As far as Disney and DCA go, I think the park was perfectly fine when it opened, then slowly was turned into a mess. People were so adamantly against it, and I thought they were being so over the top hysterical about it, I ended up defending the place a lot. People were reacting like it was a snake pit. It was just a theme park built to entertain that had a weak mix of attractions and needed some bumping up. For this attitude I was called everything you could possibly imagine, and despised. I gave it back, of course. I tend to fight back. SO, I'm happy that DCA is getting it's makeover, as it might be good, but the thing is that the stuff they are doing in this makeover is the sort of thing that I think is what they are not doing right in all their parks, and it's going to eventually affect them. And I want them to do well, so I can continue to enjoy what Disney offers. But the truth is that nothing I say, or what anyone else says online means anything. None of what I write here has amounts to anything, nor has anything I've ever written online meant anything. It's just been a way to kill a whole lot of time uselessly.
Originally Posted By Mr X Oh, well...so much for the "guess the middle name" game. I was going to go for "Vincent" (guess I'd have lost lol).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo BTW Jon, although there are times where you have gotten my hackles up over the years, I do like you and I do enjoy debating with you! I find although you are forthright with your opinions, you argue your case well, and sometimes I find there are some fantastic thoughts you put out there.
Originally Posted By Mr X **I'm actually a very nice person, funny and helpful. I'm kind to people** I'm not all that surprised. **but am very impatient sometimes when people just say things I think are dumb** Even less surprised. **I have a raging ego, and I think I know better than you, unless you convince me otherwise.** Least surprising of all! lol. **It seems most people online dislike me a lot.** You've won over a few folks, myself included, who appreciate your abrasive nature as being part of what makes Jon, Jon. if that makes any sense. Some friends of mine who've complained about you have mentioned, though, that you often seem to only agree with people up to the point where they coincide with your view of life, and no more. They find it somewhat intolerant and/or egotistical, they feel you never allow for any alternate opinion that may conflict with your own. I can understand that point of view, though I've defended you to a point with some other folks because I appreciate what you have to say and think you are "on the ball" more than most...plus most people online hate me too. The biggest concern of SOME of my friends though, is that you kill topics by being pig-headed. Instead of just letting things go after a few rounds of batting heads, you continue beating that stuff into the ground (always with some willing participant), to the point where the topic is no longer interesting to talk about...I kind of agree there, but I wish there were some middle-ground to be found. I hope you don't consider these comments insulting or anything, just thought it was a chance to mention some stuff...(probably crappy and inappropriate...that has been my track record for the past year!).
Originally Posted By jonvn Thanks. I'm just really feeling very down right now about things. Really down.
Originally Posted By Mr X **I'm nearly deaf. Loud music and genetics did me in.** I'm very sorry to hear that! I must say, as a musician that is akin to my worst nightmare (everyone has their own right?)!! Ugh...I hope I wrote that correctly. Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about your loss of hearing, that's really rough.
Originally Posted By Mr X **So I avoid talking to people, and meeting people. This is one reason why almost no one has ever met me.** That's really sad. I think, for what it's worth, I've met some AWESOME people in the LP community such as SuperDry, Dennis-in-CT, WorldDisney and many others. It has been a great chance to meet some people I NEVER would've met otherwise (Dennis has dragged me to CONNECTICUT, and also NYC, on 2 separate occasions, places I never would've visited otherwise), and I don't regret a single second of having met these nice folks. I know lots of people WOULD like to meet you, and I hope that the hearing problem doesn't stop you in the future if you want to meet someone. With that in mind, I'm sure they would all be considerate of the issue. I also suffer from some minor hearing loss, which limits my ability to converse at times. It has been a huge embarrassment to me, being a musician (I don't know HOW many times I've heard "what? you didn't hear that? WHY?)...nightmare. Anyway, I'm sorry to hear that might make you hesitant to meet good people...
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo jonvn, I am sorry to hear you are down. Ironically I find the web can sometimes pull me even further downhill. I hope you feel better soon. And once again, I value your point of view and your membership of LP.
Originally Posted By Mr X **None of what I write here has amounts to anything, nor has anything I've ever written online meant anything.** I disagree. **Thanks. I'm just really feeling very down right now about things. Really down.** Jon, I am really, REALLY sorry to hear this! What is going ON lately with people!? I've been feeling the same way! And WorldDisney as well... Ugh... Jon, I hope you are okay. You are welcome to email me if you want to chat, have a conversation, whatever... my email is jammindave@hotmail.com, and my name is Dave. I hope you will feel free to write if you wish!
