Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <So, gay people are not part of society and don't deserve the same protections and rights?> That's not what I've said at all. <If that is what constitutes a "contract with society", then not allowing a group of the population to marry that are citizens of the united states and protected under its laws, is infringing on their right to have those rights.> Those aren't rights. those are benefits that society grants to those who qualify for the contract.
Originally Posted By dshyates "That's not what I've said at all." Not verbatim, but yes that is exactly what you have asserted and what the entire converstaion has been about. DuhDouglas.
Originally Posted By piperlynne <<Those aren't rights. those are benefits that society grants to those who qualify for the contract.>> They are laws granting abilities and protections supported by federal code. If you'd like I can list all of the codes. Denying access to protection under those federal laws to a citizen of the United States violates that amendment.
Originally Posted By piperlynne And I'm entirely sure that the not having to testify against your spouse in court is a "right" not a benefit. (As ONE example)
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Not verbatim, but yes that is exactly what you have asserted and what the entire converstaion has been about.> No, it's not.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I don't think you are.<< I really am, even though you are starting to get defensive and dismissive. That's why I asked you questions, and when you got stuck within the logic trail you created, you lashed out with the "it's not my fault you can't come up with workable definitions" line.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >>I don't believe that gay people are below me.<< Yes, you do. >>If you said it before, you were as wrong then as you are now.<< No, I'm not. (See, I can do it, too.)
Originally Posted By dshyates Douglas you have said repeatedly that gays don't deserve the same rights as you have because they are gay. It really is that simple.
Originally Posted By dshyates But i guess I am worthy in the Douglas Book of Values. I am gay AND have 2 kids.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I really am, even though you are starting to get defensive and dismissive.> Yeah, I tend to do that when people put words in my mouth, accuse me of being things I'm not, or bring up irrelevant points. Why take the time to engage them when it's obvious they aren't interested in honest debate?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Douglas you have said repeatedly that gays don't deserve the same rights as you have because they are gay.> No, I haven't.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I am worthy in the Douglas Book of Values. I am gay AND have 2 kids.> More than that, your comments on this board over the years has led me to believe that you are a good, caring person who wants what is best for his kids and for society. Although we frequently disagree about how best to accomplish those ends, and I think you have a tendency to be dismissive of conservative ideas and too willing to believe the worst of conservatives in general, I do not doubt your intentions.
Originally Posted By dshyates Well, thank you sir. I respect classical conservative values. But have little tolerance of stereotypical conservative rhetoric.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <But have little tolerance of stereotypical conservative rhetoric.> I feel the same way about sterotypical liberal rhetoric.
Originally Posted By dshyates "I feel the same way about sterotypical liberal rhetoric." I know how you feel.
Originally Posted By piperlynne I pretty much think stereotypical rhetoric of any sort is counterproductive. Now, engaging debate. . .I like that. . .Lets get back to it
Originally Posted By piperlynne part of it. . other than the occassional sniping (ok, occassional is a misstatement).
