Originally Posted By cmpaley >>>>If illegal immigration were to end today and all the illegal immigrants went home, there would still be a 10-20 year waiting period for all new immigrant applicants.<< I don't know that that's the case. But even if it is, clearly we're doing SOMETHING right if that many people want to come here.<< Considering what people in other countries are told about how great life is here and such, as well as the opportunity to make a better life, I think that's what draws people, not our corrupt, outdated, unwelcoming and racist immigration laws. >>>>how we, as a culture, act towards the poor and the stranger<< I think as a nation, while far from perfect, are pretty generous, especially when compared with many other countries.<< I'm not comparing the US to "other countries." I don't care if other countries all shoot people from other countries just for the fun of it. I don't see how you can say that, as a society, we're "pretty generous" when we have hundreds of thousands of people who have no place to live, millions who go to bed every night hungry and thirsty through no fault of their own, an immigration system that is not only antiquated, but underfunded and incompetent by design, millions of children have no medical insurance, and so on...all while our congress is giving more and more massive tax cuts and benefits to corporations (corporate welfare) and the rich. >>We have our share of red tape and racists, no argument, and we have room to improve. But overall, I think saying that as a nation we're less than welcoming to immigrants, in a country that is made up almost entirely of immigrants, is a huge stretch.<< Considering the "I GOT MINE, SCREW YOU" attitude that exists in our culture, I think it's an accurate diagnosis.
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Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "Considering the "I GOT MINE, SCREW YOU" attitude that exists in our culture, I think it's an accurate diagnosis." Well, you'd be wrong. I think K2M summed things up quite nicely.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I don't see how you can say that, as a society, we're "pretty generous"<< I know you don't see it. And yet, what this country offers is opportunity. And when disaster strikes in another part of the world, even Iran if you'll recall, we jump in to help. >>Considering the "I GOT MINE, SCREW YOU" attitude that exists in our culture<< Some of that exists, but it sure isn't everywhere. That's too bleak and downbeat a view of this country for me, and there are too many examples of people in this country doing generous, caring, selfless things for it to be an accurate picture of who we are as a country. I don't know why you have such a downbeat view of things, but it isn't nearly as dark and dreary as you believe.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>Thanks for the diatribe but I think you are displaying what some would call bigotry. Those are some mighty broad generalizations you’ve made about the “rabid rightâ€! I know, I know I’m the liar but I will still refrain from taking the bait.<< Because the fact is, you can't respond to the truth truthfully. How in the world can you demonstrate that the rabid-right wing, as demonstrated by the actions of the Republican party in Congress, is for the poor? It's impossible. >>Anywho, I again never advocated most of what you said in your tribe.<< No, of course not. You never actually *say* it, you say things like: >>One, why shouldn’t one pull themselves up by the straps<< ...instead. >>and two how do you explain the success of Asians? They come here without knowing English but they thrive.<< Yeah. Have you ever noticed how Asian communities are quite closed? Chinatowns, Koreatowns, Little Tokyos, etc. are the rule for Asian immigrants. I ought to know how it works since I live in the part of Los Angeles called...Koreatown. >>Still in all that you didn’t answer so I’ll take it as a yes, coat giving outweighs death.<< See, that's where your rhetoric and ideology separate. How can you be for "coat giving," which I would take to mean helping the poor, when you're also not in opposition culture of death (note that term...it was coined by John Paul the Great)? >>Oh and the war wasn’t a drop of a hat 3000 Americans died and we are at war, to say old Saddam (after years of chicanery) is innocent as Snow White is wishful thinking or the musings of a mad man.<< So, Saddam planned or was otherwise involved in 9/11? No...the war wasn't necessarily at the drop of a hat to anyone who pays attention and takes a moment to be informed. This Iraqi adventure was planned for in the late 1990's by the Project for a New American Century. The only thing that the 9/11 attackers as a group and the Iraqui people have in common are that they are both composed of Arabs.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>"Considering the "I GOT MINE, SCREW YOU" attitude that exists in our culture, I think it's an accurate diagnosis." Well, you'd be wrong. I think K2M summed things up quite nicely.<< How so? Look at our culture today. We only become generous when there is a major disaster or it's that time of year. Most of the time, people are all about accumulating more and more for themselves and to hell with everyone else. As a society, we've become so hardened that we're willing to let people go hungry, thirsty, drive away the stranger, keep the naked from being clothed, tossing the sick on the street and killing the imprisoned. The fact that there is little to no outcry by the people of this country over what Congress did this past month (by cutting services that benefit the poor and middle class and giving yet another massive tax cut to the already wealthy and implementing more corporate welfare) is very, very telling. I defy anyone to prove otherwise.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "I defy anyone to prove otherwise." Forget it. We've been down this road with you plenty of times. Reasonable minds can differ. As far as I'm concerned, this is a prime example of one of your extreme reactions to things, a la Schwarzenegger.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>I don't see how you can say that, as a society, we're "pretty generous"<< I know you don't see it. And yet, what this country offers is opportunity. And when disaster strikes in another part of the world, even Iran if you'll recall, we jump in to help. >>Considering the "I GOT MINE, SCREW YOU" attitude that exists in our culture<< Some of that exists, but it sure isn't everywhere. That's too bleak and downbeat a view of this country for me,<< How, as a nation, a society and a culture, can we say that we're generous when our leaders are doing everything in their power to not serve the poor and give more and more benefits to the wealthy? The people who are in charge are those who have the "I GOT MINE, SCREW YOU" mentality. Yes, as individuals, most Americans are wonderful and caring. It's not the wonderful and caring people who are in charge right now. The ones in charge are like that grumpy uncle we all have who likes to complain about how "government" is making his life a living hell and how "they" (usually the poor, brown, or immigrant) are dragging this country down. >>and there are too many examples of people in this country doing generous, caring, selfless things for it to be an accurate picture of who we are as a country.<< I'm not talking about individuals, I'm talking about our country, our society and our culture. >>I don't know why you have such a downbeat view of things, but it isn't nearly as dark and dreary as you believe.<< Once again, I'm not talking about individuals. Yes, there are tens of millions of wonderful people in this country. The problem is, they're not the ones who are in charge right now.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>We only become generous when there is a major disaster or it's that time of year.<< While it's true that giving goes way up during the holidays, there are other, ongoing charities and church groups and other fundraising activities throughout the year that address the very things you're concerned about. Many of them also recieve generous support from (gasp!) GIANT EVIL CORPORATIONS. You can repeat the whole "to hell with everyone else" attitude line all day long, and it won't make it so. Maybe you need to travel more, get out of LA for awhile or something. Find the good that's out there. There's a lot of it. Every community in the country has charitable organizations, projects, services for the needy. I'm sure there are some cold-hearted so-and-so's out there who fit your "I got mine" stereotype, but they're hopelessly outnumbered by decent people who are willing to help. And one way to help is by creating jobs. Those giant evil corporations do that as well, and there's no better way to not need public assistance than gainful employment, so take it easy on bashing these job-creators too awfully much.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>"I defy anyone to prove otherwise." Forget it. We've been down this road with you plenty of times. Reasonable minds can differ. As far as I'm concerned, this is a prime example of one of your extreme reactions to things, a la Schwarzenegger.<< No. You CAN'T prove otherwise. Individually, Americans can do great things. The people elected by Americans, however, are...well, they're selfish bastards and their way of governing demonstrates that...every day. Isn't your agency going to be suffering MAJOR cuts? Doesn't your agency work to serve the most helpless of our population? (Children) Where is the outcry? Instead, we have other right-wingers ON THIS VERY SITE saying, why should the government help collect money from deadbeat parents who won't own up to their own responsibility? How can we, as a nation, say that we care for the helpless when that is allowed to happen...all so that more tax cuts can be given to the already wealthy and more corporate welfare can be implemented?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Once again, I'm not talking about individuals.<< Now you're backtracking. You said *we* only are generous at certain times. You said people are about accumulating more for themselves and to hell with everyone else. That sure didn't sound like you were talking about the government.
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Originally Posted By cmpaley >>We only become generous when there is a major disaster or it's that time of year.<< While it's true that giving goes way up during the holidays, there are other, ongoing charities and church groups and other fundraising activities throughout the year that address the very things you're concerned about. Many of them also recieve generous support from (gasp!) GIANT EVIL CORPORATIONS.<< And yet, there are hundreds of thousands of people who don't have a place to sleep tonight...or any night. Millions go to bed hungry every night, many go naked, the sick are not treated because they can't afford to get treatment, and people in prison aren't visited or helped to overcome. Strangers aren't welcomed but are scapegoated. And I'm not talking about corporations. I didn't mention corporations except to say that the Congress, which is run by rabid-right Republicans, increased the amount of corporate welfare in the budget...again. >>You can repeat the whole "to hell with everyone else" attitude line all day long, and it won't make it so. Maybe you need to travel more, get out of LA for awhile or something. Find the good that's out there. There's a lot of it.<< I don't deny that. The problem is that those in charge are bad and they're the ones who are making it harder and harder for the middle class and poor while making life easier for the already wealthy. >>Every community in the country has charitable organizations, projects, services for the needy.<< And they're all struggling. >>I'm sure there are some cold-hearted so-and-so's out there who fit your "I got mine" stereotype, but they're hopelessly outnumbered by decent people who are willing to help.<< That's why we have the political leadership we do, innit? >>And one way to help is by creating jobs. Those giant evil corporations do that as well, and there's no better way to not need public assistance than gainful employment, so take it easy on bashing these job-creators too awfully much.<< Corporations don't create jobs, consumer create jobs by creating demand. Corporations tend avoid creating jobs by outsourcing or increasing production without hiring more people. Also, corporations tend to try to pay people less and less and cut benefits. Isn't it true that it's small and medium size business that hires the most number of people?
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>>>Once again, I'm not talking about individuals.<< Now you're backtracking. You said *we* only are generous at certain times. You said people are about accumulating more for themselves and to hell with everyone else. That sure didn't sound like you were talking about the government.<< In a democratic republic, you can't separate government from the society or the culture because the government, elected by the people, is a reflection of the society and the culture. That's the mistake so many people make and it leads to bad policy decisions. "The American people are the most generous in the world so we, as a nation, are going to cut services to the poor and middle class and give more benefits to corporations and cut taxes on the already wealthy and *hope* that charity will make up for it." That makes no logical sense but that's what you're saying.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Bottom line: You want an enormous, all-encompassing form of government that takes care of every single person from cradle to grave. It's been tried before -- didn't work out so well. >>Strangers aren't welcomed but are scapegoated.<< Here we go with illegal immigration again. No thanks. Again, I don't know where you're getting your view of the country, but it's a dark, dismal, hopeless take that would leave me in bed sucking my thumb every morning, too afraid to go out the door. If this is what you're hearing at mass every Sunday, you definitely ought to consider the next church down the road for a fresh perspective... one with much more optimism and hope. I mean.... man.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder From Iraq elections to illegal immigration. Alrighty. The U.S. has no obligation whatsoever to take care of those who come across our borders without permission. (In other words, illegals.) Zip, zero, nada, none. We have a hard enough time taking care of U.S. citizens. It is not our job to save everyone. There is a process in place to accept immigrants. If this process is too cumbersome, frankly, too bad. Maybe if illegals didn't come over and rape our system, it wouldn't be so bad. I understand these people want a better life. Maybe if they expounded that energy towards improving their own country, they wouldn't want to leave. If this makes me a bad person, I can live it. I don't think it does, though. I see our system being wasted every day by those it was not intended to help. There is no way in the world anyone can tell me California would not consistently be in great financial shape if we prevented this abuse.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>Bottom line: You want an enormous, all-encompassing form of government that takes care of every single person from cradle to grave. It's been tried before -- didn't work out so well.<< Where did I say that? You're making assumptions. What I said is that what our leaders does reflects the "will of the people" because you cannot separate the government from the society or the culture. The actions by the rabid-right wing in charge of Congress show that the "will of the people" is that the poor are to be cut-off and that corporations and rich are to be given first priority at the public treasury. What I AM saying is that we, as a nation and a culture, have a moral obligation, especially in this, the richest country in the history of the universe, to make sure that no one in our country goes hungry, that everyone in our country doesn't go thirsty, that we welcome the stranger and treat them with respect, that the naked are clothed, that those who are sick are not left to die and that those in prison are visited. Oh, and that working people have rights in their workplaces. Some of those things can be done through the government (such as ensure that the rights of working people are enforced) and some of them can be done on a cultural basis (in other words, it just gets done). In our culture, however, we walk past homeless people every day and cluck our tongues at them as we shake our heads and think, "what a shame, the stupid fool." We see a person who doesn't look like we do or speak our language and treat them like crap assuming that they are "illegal" (you brought that up here, not me). >>>>Strangers aren't welcomed but are scapegoated.<< Here we go with illegal immigration again. No thanks.<< Once again, you're assuming facts not in evidence. I didn't mention illegal immigration, I said that strangers are scapegoated. Let's be honest. You listen to people talk about anything having to do with latinos and it INVARIABLY turns to those "damn illegal Mexicans." I'm all about fixing the problems that cause illegal immigration...too bad the rabid-right IS NOT. >>Again, I don't know where you're getting your view of the country, but it's a dark, dismal, hopeless take that would leave me in bed sucking my thumb every morning, too afraid to go out the door.<< Um...actually, I'm trying to point things out so we can FIX them. If we're going to fix things, we need to take an HONEST look at what's going on around us so we can focus our efforts in the right direction. >>If this is what you're hearing at mass every Sunday, you definitely ought to consider the next church down the road for a fresh perspective... one with much more optimism and hope. I mean.... man.<< No, this is not what I hear at Mass. My point of view comes from looking at the world around me and comparing it to what I see in Scripture as well as Catholic social teaching. Scripture says we, as individuals AND as a society and culture, are responsible for helping the poor, welcoming the stranger, etc. I think we, at this point, are doing a miserable job of doing these things and want to see us to better. But we can't do anything unless these things are pointed out.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>From Iraq elections to illegal immigration. Alrighty. The U.S. has no obligation whatsoever to take care of those who come across our borders without permission. (In other words, illegals.) Zip, zero, nada, none. We have a hard enough time taking care of U.S. citizens. It is not our job to save everyone. There is a process in place to accept immigrants. If this process is too cumbersome, frankly, too bad. Maybe if illegals didn't come over and rape our system, it wouldn't be so bad. I understand these people want a better life. Maybe if they expounded that energy towards improving their own country, they wouldn't want to leave. If this makes me a bad person, I can live it. I don't think it does, though. I see our system being wasted every day by those it was not intended to help. There is no way in the world anyone can tell me California would not consistently be in great financial shape if we prevented this abuse.<< I didn't go there, so you need to pull this back. I will say, however, that this post is so full of propaganda and buzzwords that it's almost a parody of the anti-immigrant movement. Well done on the comedy angle.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "I didn't go there, so you need to pull this back. I will say, however, that this post is so full of propaganda and buzzwords that it's almost a parody of the anti-immigrant movement. Well done on the comedy angle." It isn't all about you. Sensitive much? This is all me, what I feel and believe. No buzzwords, no propaganda, no anything. So, was that a dig on the comedy thing? MY post was serious.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>"I didn't go there, so you need to pull this back. I will say, however, that this post is so full of propaganda and buzzwords that it's almost a parody of the anti-immigrant movement. Well done on the comedy angle." It isn't all about you. Sensitive much? This is all me, what I feel and believe. No buzzwords, no propaganda, no anything. So, was that a dig on the comedy thing? MY post was serious.<< It's almost word-for-word what all the anti-immigrant folks say in public when discussing immigration of any sort. Funny that...someone mentions immigration and how our culture treats almost all immigrants like crap and invariably people must bring up illegal immigration. Why is this?
