Originally Posted By barboy ///On other thing- don't be surprised if it turns out Snowden was really a Russian spy all along./// well, with 'enemies' like that who needs friends
Originally Posted By mawnck >>"What people got killed?" See post 29 Tom.<< OK, Post 29: >>As for the deaths, no, you're not going to hear about them, ever.<< Uhhhh … really?
Originally Posted By ecdc The discussion around deaths is a perfect example of the problem. It's possible there were deaths, and if so, that's truly awful. But I don't know if there were deaths because our security operations have created an environment where everything is, "Just trust us." I don't know whether to believe them if they say there are deaths. I have no idea how much damage Snowden has actually caused to our security. Because nothing is transparent, nothing is available. They insist they can't tell us because it harms national security, then if we demand information, they say sorry, it harms national security, and if someone leaks information about our freedoms being encroached on, they scream, "You're harming national security!" They've created the ultimate win/win for themselves: No accountability or transparency because every single attempt to gain access is a "threat" to our security. I think most of us can be forgiven for being suspicious of their claims.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>They insist they can't tell us because it harms national security, then if we demand information, they say sorry, it harms national security, and if someone leaks information about our freedoms being encroached on, they scream, "You're harming national security!"<< Exactly. That we are slowly but steadily becoming a fascist state is far worse than if a few spies lost their lives. My advice: If you can claim dual citizenship in another country, do so and procure a foreign passport. If the trend in the US continues, you might need it someday.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I hate it when I see liberals getting just as paranoid as conservatives are. Better buy an AR-15 too for when they come after you!
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I hate it when I see liberals getting just as paranoid as conservatives are.<< Being unhappy with the government spying on us and the ongoing militarization of the police is "paranoid"? >>Better buy an AR-15 too for when they come after you!<< You and I both know that would be utterly futile.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer My understanding is that the information released applies to technical capabilities and surveillance operations, not individual assets. The threat of deaths that the NSA talked about was not in terms of the individual agents having their cover blown, but about the NSA failing (again) to find out information about a 9/11-type event in time to prevent it. But we know now that the program to collect information on the cell phone usage and location information on every American is unconstitutional, which is what Snowden's point was. And we wouldn't know about this over-reach of federal power without his revelation. I tend to think that protecting the Constitution is more important than protecting the government.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck "I tend to think that protecting the Constitution is more important than protecting the government." Especially when that government takes on such an attitude of arrogant supremacy. This whole business about the people being in charge is nothing but a myth.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder On the deaths- I've made references to this before, but our family is acquainted with members of the military. When my wife and I had dinner with Dabob recently, we touched on this a little bit and went a little further with who they are, etc. In general terms I can occasionally share things they relate. Choose to believe it or not, matters not to me, but it is all true. I'm sorry if this is too vague for some people, but it is what it is. Whether Snowden turns out to be some self-appointed watchdog or a Russian mole, no one knows if it is more than anyone could imagine or if it is manageable because the assessment won't be done for years yet. One thign that can be said with certainty is that the potential for harm far outweighs any "good" that might come from exposing certain things. This country long ago lost its innocence, and to think otherwise or to think it can be restored is indeed naive.
